Courtesy, manners and tradition

[RICHARD]

Is that like the pot calling the Kettles,
Ma and Pa instead of Mr. and Mrs.?

It's a joke, if you are old enought to remember the K's!



MY rule of manners is quite simple.

If I say it, I own it.
I can apologize.

If someone offends me?
Tough, I don't care and laugh.

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I am going to toss this one out because I have come across thousands of boorish woman who complaing about manners.


If I open a door for you or wait until you pass in a narrow hallway or push my shopping cart out of YOUR way, take a second to say "thanks" or even look at me crooked.

Many of you -and NO ONE ON THIS BOARD- stick you noses in the air and walk on by, If a clutch of you walk thru and one says "thanks", the rest of you turn, embarrassed as such, and parrot the words so you aren't left out and we men can appreciate the fact that you are polite, you just had to be reminded....


At times I lean in and whisper, "You are welcome" to remind you that you don't see me there. Some women get the hint and will comment, others won't even bother.

If you do say, "thanks", I'll whisper to you....."that's one rule they haven't changed-YET!"
And we will share a laugh about it.

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I worked with some "royal" people who were pretty rude-some were nurses who would chastise me for opening a door for them. LOL, after that, If I saw them on campus heading for a door, I would make sure to beat them there and flip it closed on them. Rude works both ways and I don't have alot of time for royalty and people who think they deserve my courtesy.

[Cataholic]

Richard, I think I have posted this before, and it goes right in hand with your post. Jonah LOVES to hold the door open for people at his nursery school. (It irritates me, cause it makes me later than I want to be ). You would be amazed at the number of WOMEN- MOTHERS of small children themselves- walk by as if the cannot see a 4 year old holding the door for them. It makes me so flipping angry. The look in his eye sometimes...and, I do not make excuses for them. I tell him, flat out, "they have no manners, Jonah, but, you do and that is great!".

I don't care if they hear or not. And, yes, I realize that is rude of me. You hurt MY feelings, I will deal with it. You hurt my child's feelings, you'll deal with me. Seems fair.

I have held my fair share of doors, elevators, to other women, and they are usually lacking in the 'thank you' department.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I hold the door for ANYONE...male female or unknown -- young or old it really doesn't matter to me..

As the great Betty Freidan said...when a man apologized to her for holding the door..."I would have done the same thing for you if I had gotten there first."

I hold the door for people because it is the polite thing to do...not for the thank you.

(And yes...I am effusive if a young person holds the door for me and thank anyone who does.)

[Cataholic]

I hold the door for people because it is the polite thing to do...not for the thank you.

And, it is polite to utter a thank you, or a smile of recognition.

[Edwina's Secretary]

And, it is polite to utter a thank you, or a smile of recognition.

I can only control what I do ..not the other guy...

I'd like to expand...I hold the door because that is what I was taught to do. Of course a "thank you" is nice and expected. But I do not know if the person's mother just died, they just got fired, they are puzzling out the solution to world peace and are distracted.

So if someone doesn't thank me...I will not let that make me behave in a way that is not polite. Kind of ruins the whole thing, doesn't it?

[RICHARD]

(And yes...I am effusive if a young person holds the door for me and thank anyone who does.)

I saw a doctor for my effusion.


Cat,

And don't stop hammering the point home for Jonah, I cannot believe you are irritated for raising a gentleman?

Get a grip woman. That's your legacy and the women in his life will say, "Your mama raised you right!" Of course, you won't be there when that happens, you have to cut the apron strings some day.

Get over your bad self!

[Twisterdog]

My sister talks a lot about going to school in the fifties and sixties ... she is seventeen years older than me. I swear, she is scarred for life by having to wear a dress every day. She said she has never been so cold in her life as riding a bus, walking to school, or standing out at recess in North Dakota when it was below zero every day, wearing a dress and dress shoes. All this while the boys wore pants, heavy coats and snowboots and had a ball playing. She said even when it was warm ... how do you play in a dress without boys seeing your underwear? So, I have to say good riddance to that silly rule!

I agree with Cataholic ... society has changed its views on children in the last forty years or so. And I think that is a good portion of the perceived change in manners.

It also depends a lot on the family, and the parents doing the teaching. I know a lot of people my sister's age who are rude and crass. And a lot of people my age (I grew up in the 70's and 80's) with very good manners. I was certainly raised to send thank you cards, address elders by Sir, Ma'am, Mr. or Mrs., say please, thank you and pardon me. I hold doors for anyone - doesn't the first one to a door always hold it? And my son, who is seventeen, was taught, and practices those same things, as do many of his friends.

[Cataholic]

Cat,

And don't stop hammering the point home for Jonah, I cannot believe you are irritated for raising a gentleman?

Get a grip woman. That's your legacy and the women in his life will say, "Your mama raised you right!" Of course, you won't be there when that happens, you have to cut the apron strings some day.

Get over your bad self!

Go read the other threads, Richard, I won't EVER be cutting those apron strings!

[Grace]

You know... as of late... I have been very impressed with the kids and teens I have come across.

I have heard A LOT of please, thank you, yes sir, yes ma'am, just general manners and polite behaviour... some even hold the door or pick up something you dropped to give it back to you etc etc.

Even at a hockey game we went to recently a group of highschool age kids were at the game... it was a bus group so there was a lot of them. and they were not out of control, if they needed by they said "excuse me" "sorry" and 'thank you" and other than the usual hockey game cheering they weren't obnoxious nor were they potty mouthed.

I just think the bad experiences stick out in our minds more than the good experiences.

As for the sir/ma'am/mr/mrs thing.... I agree with cataholic... it's appropriate to call an adult sir or ma'am etc if you don't really know them so well or who have requested you call them that or not specifically stated that you can call them by their first name. I will do my best to teach Hannah to refer to adults and sir and ma'am but if they request she call them by their first name i will not object... it was at their request.

I'm so glad to hear what you say in your first couple of paragraphs. It's the please and thank you that I like to hear - and many times don't these days. I, personally don't care if anyone calls me Mrs. or by my first name, but a modicum of politeness is greatly appreciated.

As far as age, I predate both pomtzu and Medusa. I remember when my mother would dress to the nines, with hat and gloves when going downtown to shop. I much prefer the more casual life styles of today.

[Catlady711]

First I had a couple comments individually that sparked something for me, then I'll get on to my general consensus on the matter, not that anyone actually cares but I'll do it anyways because people can always skim past it if they don't want to read it. lol

In school, we had to line up in two rows every morning and follow the teacher to our classroom, girls in their own classroom and boys in theirs. The playground was divided up by a thick white line, so girls and boys didn't mix. We accepted it as normal, even though, today, I can’t see it was an advantage for anyone, it probably made all of us more shy to the opposite sex.

Actually I see a great advantage (18 and under). If both sexes aren't allowed to mix freely then it makes those times (dances, dates etc) more special when they are allowed to mix instead of being taken for granted. If the sexes aren't allowed to mix and are shy with each other, in my opinon, we'd go back to having far less teen pregnancies, although that part would also require society to go back to being shocked when teens are kissing passionately in public, holding hands in public, and hugging freely in affection. That ain't likely to happen again, but it was a combination of societies views and separation or restriction of mixing of sexes that kept the unwed mothers to more of a shocking minimum IMHO.

As you say, if it's at the adult's request, then that's different. I mentioned that I told my neighbor's 10 year old son that he may call me Mary but his mother objected, saying that it's disrespectful.

I ran into that with one family at our church. While I greatly respect them for teaching their children manners and respect, I also think it's disrespectful to teach your children to call someone something they don't care for. To call someone Mr/Mrs when they specifically, and repeatedly ask otherwise is accomplishing the opposite result, it's offensive instead of respectful, IMHO.

Jonah LOVES to hold the door open for people at his nursery school. (It irritates me, cause it makes me later than I want to be ). You would be amazed at the number of WOMEN- MOTHERS of small children themselves- walk by as if the cannot see a 4 year old holding the door for them.

I always make a fuss over the kids that hold the door for me, and usually look them in the eye, bend down a bit, and say 'thank you young man/lady'. The only exceptions I make to that is when some kids try to open a door that's way too big for them and throw a fit if you try to help, or the ones that may open the door but then stand in the way playing so you can't get through. Fortunately I don't encounter too many of those types.


As for my general concensus (sp?) I think it goes a bit deeper than has been touched upon so far. 'Back in the good 'ole days' there was one thing that was fairly constant that is completely missing today, even with the parents in some cases.

When I and my mom were kids the adults were allowed to punish the kids, and not just their own. Whether that meant a spanking, or squeezing your arm, getting down on your level, and staring at you while using a harsh tone didn't matter. The result was the same. Even if you did something wrong and your parents weren't present, there was always an adult around somewhere to catch you, punish you, and would report the incident to your parents who in turn would also punish you. There was no where you could 'get away' with much of anything.

In today's world we don't know or, in some cases, care about our neighbors. So it makes it kinda hard to report any behavior to the parents when you don't know which kid goes with which house. People come and go and ofttimes no one knows the difference.

In today's world if you report the problem to the parents you're lible to get your head bit off with swear words and 'who are you to pick on my child'. (actually have had this happen to me). Given that people tend to not do or say anything anymore, thus 'allowing' bad behaviour to continue and escalate.

In today's world people are under the misconception that you cannot touch a child for any reason. I can't recall where I read the article but there is no law against swatting your child with "some" force, on the behind only, fully clothed, and with an open hand, not leaving any marks or causing physical damage. I know many people, for whatever reason, are against spanking. I suppose that's their right and choice, and not all children actually require spanking to make them mind. I dissagree with the common notion that spanking kids properly, causes them to be violent people. I was raised with spanking, as was most of my family, my mom, my husband and his family, and most of the kids I went to school with. Not one of them has ever been arrested for violent behavior, assault, etc. I think allowing a child to get away with kicking/hitting people without reprocussions teaches them violence far more than spanking ever did. JMHO

Despite the fact that the ways of this world continually depress me, anger me, and drive me absolutely batty at times; there is nothing we can do to change it, unless we want to go the route the Amish/Mennonites have (not a bad idea actually, they have well behaved children).

Things will continue to get worse all the time. I can go on all day for weeks longing for the 'good 'ole days' and complain about modern times, but since there's nothing I can do about it, and I know how I get when I'm like that, I'll just refrain and end my monologue here.

[pomtzu]

As far as age, I predate both pomtzu and Medusa. I remember when my mother would dress to the nines, with hat and gloves when going downtown to shop. I much prefer the more casual life styles of today.

Oh how well I remember that! My mom passed away at 79, and it was only a couple of years prior to that, that I was able to convince her that she would be much more comfortable (and warm) if she would wear slacks around the house, rather than her traditional "house dress" and stockings. Of course, she would never wear them in public!
Give me my sweatshirt and sweatpants - then I'm a happy (and warm) camper!

[Medusa]

I hold the door for ANYONE...male female or unknown -- young or old it really doesn't matter to me..

As the great Betty Freidan said...when a man apologized to her for holding the door..."I would have done the same thing for you if I had gotten there first."

I hold the door for people because it is the polite thing to do...not for the thank you.

This is the true reason for courtesy, not because it's expected of us, but because it makes life that much more pleasant for us all.

[Medusa]

As far as age, I predate both pomtzu and Medusa. I remember when my mother would dress to the nines, with hat and gloves when going downtown to shop. I much prefer the more casual life styles of today.

Yes, we did that, too. It was so much fun. When we were 16, my best friend and I traveled to D.C. on the train and we were dressed to the nines, as you say. We walked all over D.C. in a suit, heels and pill box hat. (Jackie Kennedy had quite an influence on us.) We even walked to the top of the Washington Monument dressed like that! (I'm not saying we were smart, just fashionable. LOL)

[Grace]

Yes, we did that, too. It was so much fun. When we were 16, my best friend and I traveled to D.C. on the train and we were dressed to the nines, as you say. We walked all over D.C. in a suit, heels and pill box hat. (Jackie Kennedy had quite an influence on us.) We even walked to the top of the Washington Monument dressed like that! (I'm not saying we were smart, just fashionable. LOL)

I'm sure I could have done something like that back then, but right now my feet ache just thinking about wearing heels in the Monument

[Twisterdog]

LOL ... speaking of dressing up vs. dressing down ....

I own one black dress. I wear it funerals. Period. (Obviously I dressed differently when I had a "real" job.)

My grandmother, OTOH, never once in her 99 years, wore a pair of pants. She wore a dress, silk nylons with a garter belt (never panty hose), high heeled dress shoes, a brooch and pearl necklace, every day of her life.

No. Thank. You. I might look like a slob compared to her, but I know I'm way more comfortable.