Is the President attempting to indoctrinate children?

[blue]

No, they are making a choice.

Before we had children, my wife and I paid taxes to support a school system.

Should we have been exempt from taxes as we had no children in the system? No, as education produces better citizens. (which could be easily interpreted as being for the general welfare of the state)

The Marxist cause, "For the greater Good". I have to agree however, its better they get any education then none.

If your schools are failing, get involved, whether you have children or not. There's no clause in school district meetings that I'm aware of which require you to have children in the system to attend the meetings, speak your peace, and exercise your rights as citizens.

School board officials are elected, not appointed. Don't like the way the school system in your municipality is being run? Vote 'em out.

The failure of schools is as much the fault of the parents and other citizens in the school districts as it is the teachers, if not more so.

Every chance I get I try to vote out everybody, be it a judge, school board official, heck anybody, even on the utility boards. Give me the chance and Ild vote my own mom off the board of directors of my old credit union.

[Lady's Human]

Yeah, John Adams was one hell of a Marxist.

Pres. Adams wrote the Massachusetts State Constitution of 1780, which served as the role model for much of the rest of the United States.

To quote:


Chapter V, Section II.
The Encouragement of Literature, etc.

Wisdom, and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools and grammar schools in the towns; to encourage private societies and public institutions, rewards and immunities, for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and a natural history of the country; to countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and frugality, honesty and punctuality in their dealings; sincerity, good humor, and all social affections, and generous sentiments among the people.


Yeah, a real Marxist (well before Marx was born), wanting people to be educated so that they could exercise their rights and flourish as citizens.

[Puckstop31]

Just reading the title of the thread makes me think one person's "teaching" is another's "indoctrination," and where the line between the two falls is purely subjective.

Ain't human beings funny?

All the more reason the federal government should not be involved in the education of our children. Reason #1 why we are going to home school Hannah.

And yes, people ARE funnay. Tell me you don't like to "people watch" at malls and airports. LOL

[Puckstop31]

For someone who is normally strict a constructionist, your stance on public education is puzzling.

It is mandated, first and foremost ,in the constitutions of the many states. This is the ultimate expression of states' rights, as Washington D.C. has helped enforce educational requirements in the state constitutions. Just as certain federal agencies are mandated through the US Constitution and taxes/revenue collection methods are mandated to maintain them, education requirements and taxes to fund them are mandated in state constitutions.

Thanks LH. I was hoping smoebody would jump in with this.

Personally. I have no problem paying taxes at a LOCAL level to fund a public school system. Further allowing that LOCAL authority the ability to define the curriculum. This would in effect give parents some level of choice.

I take a large issue with fedzilla getting invovled. They place unfunded mandates on the states. They also hold states hostage by not providing other "funding" if they do not teach as fedzilla says they should. Fedzilla makes education a very political thing. What politician runs for office wihtout talking about "money for education", as if MORE money will fix all the "problems"?

All in all, just my $.02. Our children will be homeschooled until at least age 12, at which time will be given a choice, if we think they are ready to really think for themselves. I'd be willing to guranteee that should they choose to go to public schools at that time, it will either be short lived or they will be way ahead of the others. Thats not me simply thumping my chest as a proud parent... Home schooling offers the ability to adjust curriculum to the childs learning style. Personalized education if you will. It takes a dedicated parent who has the time to do all the work involved. We as a family are fortunate to be able to provide that to Hannah and "the next one". Also, I am inspired by my best buddies kids. He has 4 home schooled daughters who are simply amazing. They are smart, polite, have many friends and do all the normal kid things. The oldest, 13, takes a college level Latin class.


Blue - I think it really does behoove you to pay those dang taxes, on the local level, to provide public schools. In today's world, it is just not realistic that all parents can provide for their own kids education. But it is very important for us as a country to have a educated population. Please take into account everything else I have said in this post though. Keep fedzilla OUT of it. It would be nice if we could ditch the public school unions too. I might send Hannah to a public school then.

[RICHARD]

All in all, just my $.02. Our children will be homeschooled until at least age 12, at which time will be given a choice, if we think they are ready to really think for themselves. I'd be willing to guranteee that should they choose to go to public schools at that time, it will either be short lived or they will be way ahead of the others. Thats not me simply thumping my chest as a proud parent... Home schooling offers the ability to adjust curriculum to the childs learning style. Personalized education if you will. It takes a dedicated parent who has the time to do all the work involved. We as a family are fortunate to be able to provide that to Hannah and "the next one". Also, I am inspired by my best buddies kids. He has 4 home schooled daughters who are simply amazing. They are smart, polite, have many friends and do all the normal kid things. The oldest, 13, takes a college level Latin class.

DUDE!

I don't have any kids so this will come as BS and not worth much.

I was pretty much against home schooling from the standpoint of "only people in cults chose that road". The next opinion was the way of the over protective parent-I don't want my kids to get involved with XXXXXX- fill in your phobia here.

Not any more.

My parents spent GOOD money to send us kids thru the 'boot camp of Catholic School'. Only my sister got thru the k-11 experience, LOL she turned out the be the most defective.

The rest of us stayed in until they found it was way too expensive and the "your Third, fourth fifth six, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth kids learn free!" coupons/offers were no good anymore.

My parents were not THAT prolific, but paying for two kids and getting the other two educated for free was a good deal.

---------------------

I went into Jr. High about two grades above what my peers were at. Because I came from an enviroment where you were taught to 'be smart' and compete for your grades, I was picked on because I made the people in my classes look stupid.

It wasn't that they were stupid. They just didn't come from the place that demanded they learn and take pride in it. I skated thru high school and the college courses that I took for my job.

Why? Sister Mary Torquemada's way of beating info into me.
Sister Mary H. Himmler's way of running the cam-ah, school.

I am being facetious here. Looking back on the experience? I didn't really enjoy all the BS around learning, but am thankful that I did attend that school.

I am a huge proponent of schools and probably could afford to pay another dollar or two-literally-for the local school system.

If everyone tossed a dollar into the hat, how much money would come from the community as large as the City of El Lay?

Even to save the 'small' classes like Music, Art and Science- I am a huge science geek and nothing would make me happier than seeing a few bucks get kicked down for THAT part of schooling....

Anyway,
With all the budget cuts and the teacher's getting beat down for trying to get kids to learn?

Keep the kids at home, where the parents can control what the kiddies learn!

---------------------------

Here's a little side light to the topic.


TEACH KIDS CIVICS. I have nieces and nephews that are very bright and when we get into conversations about current events I cringe when they ask me an honest question about stuff I learned when I was a kid.

I could probably whip the arse of any fifth grader on paper, in a quiz or spelling bee?

But, seeing the 'adults' that should have two to three times the wisdom and smarts of the next generation, fail miserably when it comes to providing a good base for learning, competition and instilling a good work ethic for their children?

I am glad I have no children.

I am an 'intelligence whore' and probably would have had the kid who graduated college at the age of 11. Then died when the kid flipped out and stabbed me in my sleep, all because he would have been forced to learn 26 out of the 24 hours in a day.

[Catty1]

OK...I am nowhere near as well-informed as everyone here, especially since I don't live in the You-Ess-Eh (my dad's mom was born in 'Warshington' state, though)...but is one address by the President and several days work on his speech really going to brainwash kids for life?

I would hope that some kids, especially if their parents didn't vote for Obama, would create some interesting "discussions" in the classroom.

Even if misguided, it seems to me part of this is to encourage young people to be a part of the solution - national citizen teamwork was something Obama mentioned in his Inaugural speech.

On the other hand - Canada has not had to face first-hand real fears and threats such as the Bay of Pigs, and refugees from Cuba. I can see that anything that smacks remotely of the government taking charge would cause great concern - because no one wants to live in Cuba or Russia!

Canadians have a similar thing going right now - and hope to boot the dictatorial Harper out at the next election (this fall?). Except - there are a lot of cattle that follow the promised decrease in our national sales tax and say that Harper is a good guy. Better look under the carpet of that tax decrease, my fellow Canucks...lot of crap there.

That's it for me.

[Miss Z]

OK...I am nowhere near as well-informed as everyone here, especially since I don't live in the You-Ess-Eh (my dad's mom was born in 'Warshington' state, though)...but is one address by the President and several days work on his speech really going to brainwash kids for life?

I would hope that some kids, especially if their parents didn't vote for Obama, would create some interesting "discussions" in the classroom.

Even if misguided, it seems to me part of this is to encourage young people to be a part of the solution - national citizen teamwork was something Obama mentioned in his Inaugural speech.

I agree with this. I find it slightly strange that something that those kids may actually have enjoyed, or been inspired by, is being taken as something so evil.

I am currently in private education and my parents too pay for the state schools as part of their taxes. We don't particularly like that our money is being spent on someone else's kid when we are forking out fortunes for my education, but we don't begrudge the teaching they are receiving. Even as an independent school, it is mandate that we adhere somewhat to the National Curriculum for the National Qualifications. Gosh, I feel that with our nationalised health system and examinations, we must be such a funny little Marxist country.

I spent a couple of years studying the Red Scare and from some of your posts, blue, it appears as if you're still living in it.

[blue]

Yeah, John Adams was one hell of a Marxist.

Pres. Adams wrote the Massachusetts State Constitution of 1780, which served as the role model for much of the rest of the United States.

To quote:


Chapter V, Section II.
The Encouragement of Literature, etc.

Wisdom, and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools and grammar schools in the towns; to encourage private societies and public institutions, rewards and immunities, for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and a natural history of the country; to countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and frugality, honesty and punctuality in their dealings; sincerity, good humor, and all social affections, and generous sentiments among the people.

Good quote, but Mr Adams was referring to the greater good for individuals, not the Marxist ideal of the greater good for the greater good. I still agree that any education is better then none.

Chapter 5 is not first and foremost.

Blue - I think it really does behoove you to pay those dang taxes, on the local level, to provide public schools. In today's world, it is just not realistic that all parents can provide for their own kids education. But it is very important for us as a country to have a educated population. Please take into account everything else I have said in this post though. Keep fedzilla OUT of it. It would be nice if we could ditch the public school unions too. I might send Hannah to a public school then.

Actually I have much less issues with my property taxes going to public schools since I moved out of Anchorage. The Mat Su Borough has much less waste and frivolous spending then A-Town when it comes to the public school system.

[Lady's Human]

First and foremost:

Primarily.

As in the primary place that a public education system is codified is in the constitutions of the states of the United States of America.

The state assuring the greater good for individuals........hmmmmmm......

I know perfectly well what Pres. Adams was referring to, you seem to miss the concept completely. There is nothing Marxist about what I stated, and there cannot, by definition, be anything Marxist about what Pres. Adams was stating.

[blue]

First and foremost:

Primarily.

Im not trying to start a pissing contest.

I know perfectly well what Pres. Adams was referring to, you seem to miss the concept completely. There is nothing Marxist about what I stated, and there cannot, by definition, be anything Marxist about what Pres. Adams was stating.

I agreed with you on that. Adams was stating for the individual, absoloutely nothing marxist in his quote.

[Lady's Human]

Another very marxist concept from the founders:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Which is what I was referring to when you brought up the specter of Marxism.

If providing an education isn't promoting the general welfare, I don't know what is.

[blue]

What part of I dont want a pissing contest dont you get?

Yes promoting the general welfare for individuals is a good thing, not promoting the greater good for the sake of the greater good. Again I agree. Promoting general welfare, on its own, is not a Marxist concept.

You brought up a quote by Mr Adams in response to my specter of Marxism, a quote that I agreed with.

ETA: If you want a pissing contest over my replys to post #43 or 45, you can go cross swords with someone else. I agreed with you on following posts, its rare that someone argues with me for agreeing with them.

[RICHARD]

I spent a couple of years studying the Red Scare and from some of your posts, blue, it appears as if you're still living in it.

What part of the red scare are you talking about?

Also, could you explain the nat'l quals?

I paid for my education and alas, my poor parents and I paid for my nieces and nephews public schooling, So I am behind the cue ball on this topic.

[blue]

blue, it appears as if you're still living in it.

I want to make sure we dont revisit those days.

I dont know enough about the UK to call it Marxist, it can be funnay though.

[Puckstop31]

Another very marxist concept from the founders:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Which is what I was referring to when you brought up the specter of Marxism.

If providing an education isn't promoting the general welfare, I don't know what is.

PROMOTE is a very different word than PROVIDE. From what I have read and understand about the men... They wanted conditions that allowed the people to take care of themselves, with the absolute minimal government interference, especially from the Federal level.

But as I have said before.... I get the concept of public schools, provided it is funded and managed from the most local level possible.