Courtesy, manners and tradition

[shepgirl]

Can't remember when we've had such a great discussion about something worthwhile.
I must have grown up in the same era as Medussa and Pomtzu because as I read Medussa's post I had to pinch myself to make sure I didn't write it.
From the dress code to the Mr. and Mrs. there was't one thing we did different when I was growing up. My dad was a miner and my mom a school teacher but she taught only after we were in school ourselves. She was still the mom who made meals, laundry, baking and cleaning. We didn't ever need for anything but the one thing I remember is that most kids had more things than we did. I think my mom being raised without much and going through the depression made her want to instill a sense of values in us to teach us one had to earn what one got.
I do remember that when we went someplace we knew better than to misbehave, we knew the consequences of bad or rude behaviour and for some reason we respected that.
I do miss that old world where people were respectful and helpful. I remember thinking our son was too strict with his children but now that they are growing up I see he was right and I was just being a granny.
Must say some teens today do surprise me with their good behaviour though. I've run into teens that looked like they would knock me over but to my surprise they offered me help with doors and such in a courteous and kind manner.

[Giselle]

As a representative of the "ME" generation, I have to speak up.

There are too many points to hit, so I'll hit the one that I think really epitomizes the cultural shift (shall we call it a paradigm shift? Only time will tell...)

RE: Titles of Ms./Mr./etc.

- I don't use titles. So shoot me. I don't use titles not because I am deliberately rude but because I believe titles preclude a relationship to hierarchal structures of subordinate vs. dominant. Although you (the elder generation) may not see it that way, this is how my generation has come to view titles. We see them as stuffy, static, and unnecessary. I call adults by their first names because I believe that it brings us into a more meaningful rapport. We are equals. We are human. We learn from each other. I call them by their first names. They call me by mine. I refuse to be limited by my age or societal norms. It may seem chaotic to you, but to me and my generation, it is a sign of our liberation, of our responsibilities, of our dignity. When we call elders by their first name, we do so because we respect them as our friends, our companions, our PEERS. Yes, peers. Gone are the days when professors lectured you, the subordinate student. Gone are the days of incontrovertible submission.

Institutions of higher level education now view their students as invaluable as the professors themselves. Certain colleges, for example, are now restructuring their schools so that students MUST, at some point, "bump" into a professor during their studies and build a relationship of mutual learning. This is the "ME" generation. We are not deliberately rude. We have simply been taught that everybody is equal, that certain social constructs (as history has taught us) deserve to be questioned, that human dignity is to be respected - even the dignity of a child or teenager. We have been taught equality - that it surpasses the limitations of economic status, race, gender, and, YES, age.

That is why I so fondly call you all on PT by your first names.

[Edwina's Secretary]

As a representative of the "ME" generation, I have to speak up.

There are too many points to hit, so I'll hit the one that I think really epitomizes the cultural shift (shall we call it a paradigm shift? Only time will tell...)

RE: Titles of Ms./Mr./etc.

- I don't use titles. So shoot me. I don't use titles not because I am deliberately rude but because I believe titles preclude a relationship to hierarchal structures of subordinate vs. dominant. Although you (the elder generation) may not see it that way, this is how my generation has come to view titles. We see them as stuffy, static, and unnecessary. I call adults by their first names because I believe that it brings us into a more meaningful rapport. We are equals. We are human. We learn from each other. I call them by their first names. They call me by mine. I refuse to be limited by my age or societal norms. It may seem chaotic to you, but to me and my generation, it is a sign of our liberation, of our responsibilities, of our dignity. When we call elders by their first name, we do so because we respect them as our friends, our companions, our PEERS. Yes, peers. Gone are the days when professors lectured you, the subordinate student. Gone are the days of incontrovertible submission.

Institutions of higher level education now view their students as invaluable as the professors themselves. Certain colleges, for example, are now restructuring their schools so that students MUST, at some point, "bump" into a professor during their studies and build a relationship of mutual learning. This is the "ME" generation. We are not deliberately rude. We have simply been taught that everybody is equal, that certain social constructs (as history has taught us) deserve to be questioned, that human dignity is to be respected - even the dignity of a child or teenager. We have been taught equality - that it surpasses the limitations of economic status, race, gender, and, YES, age.

That is why I so fondly call you all on PT by your first names.

How sad. Many cultures do still have a respect for elders.

I am curious though...you call all your teachers by their first name? You call your parents by their first names? And your grandparents? And when you go to the doctor your call him/her by first name?

It has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with respect. It has to do with what I want to be called. Is THAT not as important as your freedom to call me anything you want? Or is it....all about what you want? just all about you?

[caseysmom]

I have met Giselle, a more respectful young lady you will never meet.

[Twisterdog]

How sad. Many cultures do still have a respect for elders.

I am curious though...you call all your teachers by their first name? You call your parents by their first names? And your grandparents? And when you go to the doctor your call him/her by first name?

It has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with respect. It has to do with what I want to be called. Is THAT not as important as your freedom to call me anything you want? Or is it....all about what you want?

I agree. And, seeing as I grew up in the 70's and 80's, am I a member of the "ME" generation?

Calling someone "Mrs. Jones" does not make you submissive. It simply reflects that this person deserves some respect for the 70 or 80 years of life experience she has.

If someone asks me to address him as "John", I certainly will. Otherwise, I will call him Mr. Smith. Not because I think he's better than me ... I'm not that insecure ... but because I don't know him well.

I don't think it has much to do with age at all. My mother is almost 80 years old, and addresses her few remaining elders respectfully. I am forty, and do the same.

I prefer not to be called "Ma'am", it makes me feel old. My mom likes to be called "Grandma" ... by every child she meets. My dad thought a lot of people who called him "Sir" when they met him. I agree, it is up the person being addressed to determine what they are called.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I have met Giselle, a more respectful young lady you will never meet.

And if I said to her I want to be called Ms. Whatever...would she respect my wishes?

[caseysmom]

I can't speak for her but I wouldn't

[Catlady711]

As a representative of the "ME" generation, I have to speak up.

I believe titles preclude a relationship to hierarchal structures of subordinate vs. dominant....
We see them as stuffy, static, and unnecessary....

We are equals....

I refuse to be limited by my age or societal norms....

Gone are the days when professors lectured you, the subordinate student. Gone are the days of incontrovertible submission.

We have simply been taught that everybody is equal, that certain social constructs (as history has taught us) deserve to be questioned.... We have been taught equality - that it surpasses the limitations of economic status, race, gender, and, YES, age.

What those parts say to me (in a broad sense) is 'I'll do what I want, be submissive to no one for any reason, and question anyone in authority'. That's how I take those statements, no matter how polite, nice or sweet you may actually be in other areas.

[Grace]

And if I said to her I want to be called Ms. Whatever...would she respect my wishes?

I can't speak for her but I wouldn't

You wouldn't respect someone's wishes? Why not? Would you then expect them to respect yours?

[caseysmom]

You wouldn't respect someone's wishes? Why not? Would you then expect them to respect yours?

You are taking me too seriously.

[caseysmom]

What those parts say to me (in a broad sense) is 'I'll do what I want, be submissive to no one for any reason, and question anyone in authority'. That's how I take those statements, no matter how polite, nice or sweet you may actually be in other areas.

I would be willing to go out on a limb here and guess that giselle has never been in any kind of trouble at school...so this is a little off base.

[Catlady711]

I would be willing to go out on a limb here and guess that giselle has never been in any kind of trouble at school...so this is a little off base.

It's obvious that you are a good friend to her and like her very much which is great. However I never said she was in any, or caused trouble, in school or out. I was simply responding in a general way with how I take her general views on her generation. There is nothing 'off base' about it.

[caseysmom]

It's obvious that you are a good friend to her and like her very much which is great. However I never said she was in any, or caused trouble, in school or out. I was simply responding in a general way with how I take her general views on her generation. There is nothing 'off base' about it.

Actually we have met once but I have read her posts for years. In comparison to Giselle in years I am a lot older but in maturity and intellect she is my equal...or actually she is brighter than I am for sure.

[Giselle]

It's not sad at all.

No, I do not call my teachers or parents or grandparents by their first names. That is something entirely different. I'm talking specifically about adults we meet OUTSIDE work and school and nearly all of these adults introduce themselves to me by their first names. That tells me that they desire to be called by their first names. If I have never met a person before and they introduce themselves with a title, I will of course call them by their title (mostly because they have not told me their first name :P). However, if we have become closer, I will initiate and ask if I can call them by their first name. Most people are flattered because it means that we have reached a level in our relationship that we are familiar enough and respect each other enough to be on such intimate terms.

It's not about "I want this my way, so I'm going to do to you however I want". It's about respecting a person enough so that you see him or her as a friend and companion. To the "Me" generation, Mr/Ms.-Whoever is impersonal, as if there is something to be hidden. First names are intimate. I ask folks if I can call them by their first names because I want to seek that level of intimacy in our relationships. It's NOT disrespectful. It's exactly the opposite. It's about knowing and interacting with somebody on a more personal, profound level.

If there is an explicit request to be called by a title, why would I ever refuse to do so? You guys are taking my words entirely out of context. I merely attempted to explain why so many teenagers PREFER to use first names - because it is personal, it's intimate, it (to us) strengthens a relationship. Is that so disrespectful? Well, you've floored me there because everybody I've met/"met" (in terms of the Internet) always addresses me by my first name and prefers to be called by their first names as well. I didn't know I was being disrespectful by abiding by their wishes.

Also, as for the "other cultures". I'm a Chinese-American. Of all cultures, the Chinese culture immortalizes its elders. In our culture, names are an entirely different story. We don't have broad equivalents of Mr./Ms./whatever but rather specific titles for specific people. First names are also less important than last names. It's a very different story with a very different history.

[sumbirdy]

I am part of the "ME" generation as well, I suppose (I'm 19) and I find it uncomfortable to call anyone by their first name if they are more than 10 years older than me (unless they ask me too) I was raised that way, to respect my elders. I say please, thank you, excuse me ect... I hold doors open for people, I help wherever I can.

I have to say that I disagree with Giselle. I don't believe the use of titles limits me or says that I am not equal with my elders. I don't believe it takes away my dignity, responsiblilty. I am very opinionated, but I know that calling someone Mrs./Mr. doesn't tell them that they are not my friend. People older than me deserve my respect as do people younger. I have often heard people call children Miss or Master. And yes I said often, but maybe that is because I am from the south, where manners are more often found it seems (although I have met some VERY polite northerners)

The one thing I don't believe in is for younger people to only speak when spoken to. Besides being taught all of the above, I was taught to be independent, to have a mind of my own, to be creative, to listen to what my elders have to teach me and if I perceive something to be wrong to politely state my opinion (and I have so often found that I am wrong)

I tend to speak to people more freely over the internet since sometimes I don't know the ages, or names in some cases, of who I am talking to (that mostly refers to this board) and am sorry if I have been unintentionally rude to anyone here.