Stoned to death

[wombat2u2004]

Nice veges.

[popcornbird]

A woman who has committed adultry and has KILLED her husband....if these accusations are TRUE, then truly, I do not see any injustice in her fate. If these accusations are NOT true, and people have invented lies against her, then it is truly tragic and the world needs to step up for her.

But I repeat, if she had truly committed adultry and murder, then she deserves punishment.

As for whether this punishment applies only to women, I don't know how things are done in Iran, but if things are done according to the religious perspective, according to the laws of Islam, then these are the rules that follow.

Adultry, committed by either a MAN or a WOMAN, has the E-X-A-C-T same punishment.

The government CANNOT punish anyone for adultry unless they have FOUR witnesses first. Tell me how hard it is to find four people who have WITNESSED someone committing this act. Its HARD...most people do this in private, and just this ruling in itself would prevent punishment for the majority of cases.

And in the end, yes, the punishment is stoning.

This is the religious ruling, and not necessarily what countries do, but it is what they should be doing if this is the law that they follow.

And just as a side note...the laws of Christianity also call for the death of a person who commits adultry.

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."


To Moosmom:

Although I agree that in SOME countries, women are 'forced' to cover up, this is NOT the case in the majority of places where women cover. Women covering has nothing to do with cruelty. It has nothing to do with men making them cover. Muslim women, here in the US cover, while living under the same laws as you do.

Why do we cover up? It is for our dignity. We consider our bodies to be sacred and not an open market for men with bad intentions to feast their eyes on. How many sex offenders are out there in this country? How many times to we hear of the terrible crimes they commit against girls and young women in the news. What lures them to these women? There are many such people out there in this world, and the last thing I would want to do is expose myself to them while I am going about my business. Women in the West go out dressing SEXY. For who?..., I wonder. Is it to attract every single man on the streets? Now don't even try to tell me men don't get attracted when they see a beautiful women walking around nearly naked.

So that, my friend, is why we cover. It is our choice, and no one has the right to condemn someone else's choice in their clothing and attire. We all choose what we wear. The covering of the face is optional, which I, by the way, don't do, but I am otherwise covered head to toe when I go out of my house, and I love it, and would never go out without it. Don't judge others with ignorance. Just keep in mind that while you are judging others for covering their bodies and imagining they are oppressed, those others might be judging you and finding it unbelievable when they see how much some women show to every other person on the streets. Some people find THAT to be incredible degrading of oneself.

As to walking behind their husbands, I have been to Eastern countries. Have yet to meet anyone who follows such a thing. Sometimes the husband is fast and ends up in front of his wife, sometimes vice versa, but most of the time, I have only seen couples in all parts of the world, walking side by side, many times hand in hand. Again, don't judge blindly. Have you ever BEEN to other countries?

[Lady's Human]

And just as a side note...the laws of Christianity also call for the death of a person who commits adultry.

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

PCB: Talmudic law and Christian law are not the same thing.

You're quoting one and calling it the other.

John 8:7


So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

The last person I know who had no sin was strung up on a cross about 2000 years ago.

[Lady's Human]

This is the religious ruling, and not necessarily what countries do, but it is what they should be doing if this is the law that they follow.

Which is why I'm extremely thankful I don't live in a theocracy, despite what people think the government of the US is.

Stoning is an extremely barbaric punishment, and should not be practiced.

Sharia law should never be the law of the land.

[wombat2u2004]

To Moosmom:

Although I agree that in SOME countries, women are 'forced' to cover up, this is NOT the case in the majority of places where women cover. Women covering has nothing to do with cruelty. It has nothing to do with men making them cover. Muslim women, here in the US cover, while living under the same laws as you do.

Why do we cover up? It is for our dignity. We consider our bodies to be sacred and not an open market for men with bad intentions to feast their eyes on. How many sex offenders are out there in this country? How many times to we hear of the terrible crimes they commit against girls and young women in the news. What lures them to these women? There are many such people out there in this world, and the last thing I would want to do is expose myself to them while I am going about my business. Women in the West go out dressing SEXY. For who?..., I wonder. Is it to attract every single man on the streets? Now don't even try to tell me men don't get attracted when they see a beautiful women walking around nearly naked.

So that, my friend, is why we cover. It is our choice, and no one has the right to condemn someone else's choice in their clothing and attire. We all choose what we wear. The covering of the face is optional, which I, by the way, don't do, but I am otherwise covered head to toe when I go out of my house, and I love it, and would never go out without it. Don't judge others with ignorance. Just keep in mind that while you are judging others for covering their bodies and imagining they are oppressed, those others might be judging you and finding it unbelievable when they see how much some women show to every other person on the streets. Some people find THAT to be incredible degrading of oneself.

As to walking behind their husbands, I have been to Eastern countries. Have yet to meet anyone who follows such a thing. Sometimes the husband is fast and ends up in front of his wife, sometimes vice versa, but most of the time, I have only seen couples in all parts of the world, walking side by side, many times hand in hand. Again, don't judge blindly. Have you ever BEEN to other countries?

Thousands of Iranian women have been cautioned over their poor Islamic dress this week and several hundred arrested in the capital Tehran in the most fierce crackdown on what's known as "bad hijab" for more than a decade.
It is the talk of the town. The latest police crackdown on Islamic dress has angered many Iranians - male, female, young and old.


But Iranian TV has reported that an opinion poll conducted in Tehran found 86% of people were in favour of the crackdown - a statistic that is surprising given the strength of feeling against this move.

Police cars are stationed outside major shopping centres in Tehran.

They are stopping pedestrians and even cars - warning female drivers not to show any hair - and impounding the vehicles and arresting the women if they argue back.

Middle-aged women, foreign tourists and journalists have all been harassed, not just the young and fashionably dressed.

Individual choice

Overnight the standard of what is acceptable dress has slipped back.


I want the whole world to know that they oppress us and all we can do is put up with it

Tofiq, 15

Hard-won freedoms - like the right to wear a colourful headscarf - have been snatched away.

It may sound trivial but Iranian women have found ways of expressing their individuality and returning to drab colours like black, grey and dark blue is not something they will accept easily.

"If we want to do something we will do it anyway, all this is total nonsense," says a young girl, heavily made up and dressed up.

She believes Islamic dress should be something personal - whether you're swathed in a black chador or dressed in what she calls "more normal clothes".

Interestingly many women who choose to wear the all enveloping chador agree - saying it's a personal choice and shouldn't be forced on people.

"This year is much worse than before because the newspapers and the TV have given the issue a lot of coverage compared to last year; it wasn't this bad before," says Shabnam who's out shopping with her friend.

Permission denied

At the start of every summer the police say they will enforce the Islamic dress code, but this year has been unusually harsh.

Thousands of women have been cautioned by police over their dress, some have been obliged to sign statements that they will do better in the future, and some face court cases against them.


Even shop mannequins considered "too revealing" are dealt with

Though the authorities want coverage internally to scare women - they don't want the story broadcast abroad.

The BBC's cameraman was detained when he tried to film the police at work and the government denied us permission to go on patrol with the police.

"Really we don't have any security," complains Shabam's friend Leyla.

"Since we came out this morning many people we met have continuously warned us to be careful about our headscarves and to wear them further forward because they are arresting women who are dressed like this," she says.

Boutique owners are furious. Some shops have been sealed - others warned not to sell tight revealing clothing.

One shopkeeper selling evening dresses told us the moral police had ordered him to saw off the breasts of his mannequins because they were too revealing.

He said he wasn't the only shop to receive this strange instruction.

Respect

There's even been less traffic on the streets because some women are not venturing out - fearful they will be harassed.

And it's not even safe in a car. Taxi agencies have received a circular warning them not to carry a "bad hijabi".

"They have said we shouldn't carry passengers who wear bad Islamic dress and if we do we have to warn them to respect the Islamic dress code even inside the car," said one taxi driver.

And it's not just women who are being targeted this year.

Young men are being cautioned for wearing short sleeved shirts or for their hairstyles.

Morad - a hairdresser whose gelled hair is made to stand straight up - says it's necessary for him to look like this to attract customers.

"These last few days I don't dare walk down the main roads looking like this case I get arrested," he says.

"I use the side streets and alleys."

Morad is scared because his friends have told him they've seen the police seize young men and forcibly cut their hair if it's too long.

Fifteen-year-old Tofiq who'd also gelled his hair to stand on end said he too was afraid but he wasn't going to change.

"I want the whole world to know that they oppress us and all we can do is put up with it," he said.

Some parents have complained that harassing the young over their clothing will only push them to leave the country.

But one MP has said those Iranians who cannot cope with Islamic laws should leave.

Some commentators have suggested that the government is conducting this crackdown to distract attention from the rising cost of living in Iran and increasing tension with the international community over the nuclear issue.

If so, it's a strategy that risks alienating people who've got used to years of relative social freedom and do not want to return to the early days of the revolution when dress rules were much more tightly enforced.

[Lady's Human]

The full covering has nothing to do with respect for women, it has everything to do with controlling women.

How, praytell, can you justify covering yourself so men don't look at you?

Men aren't supposed to control themselves?

That tells me all the burden of committing a sin is on the woman, and none on the male.

Your explanation of this is a codification of the "she had it coming" defense in a rape trial.

[wombat2u2004]

The full covering has nothing to do with respect for women, it has everything to do with controlling women.

Yup.

[caseysmom]

I have been to Iran and the majority of the women and men do not like the laws, especially the younger generation. Men are expected to wear long sleeves but women do indeed take the brunt of the chauvinistic laws.

As far as seeing nothing wrong with her fate if the accusations are true. Do you believe she should receive a fair trial by her peers? Do you think stoning is not barbaric?

It is quite possible to dress modestly without a full hijab.

PCB, you say nobody has the right to condemn you for how you dress but you are being very comndemning of how "women in the west" dress. Trust me there are modest women here.

I do have to agree with you about women walking behind men, never have witnessed that although a Japanese friend of mine told me her mother did that with her Father and brothers.

[smokey the elder]

[sarcasm] They must have a very low crime rate in Iran if the cops have all this time to spend on being the fashion police. [/sarcasm].

I think both sides of the Muslim dress code debate have valid points. Clearly, Popcornbird is in favor of it and it's her choice. But the dress code issue seems to be kind of missing the whole point, IMO. To me it's superficial, and maybe less emphasis should be placed on it and more on the five pillars of Islam.

[Catty1]

LH - I agree with your distinction between Talmudic law and Christian law.

It seems, though, that many Christians do refer to 'Old Testament' quotes to justify quashing the rights of homosexuals and other groups.

I am no scholar, but I don't recall Christ being quoted as saying there was anything wrong with sex. As for adultery, he did use that 'sinless can cast the first stone'.

However, I think the NT came out against divorce, so folks may want to revert to Moses on that one.

[Lady's Human]

To quote a Rabbi who was having a discussion with a catholic friend in a greek restaurant run by an Egyptian Moslem with a hispanic cook:

What you call the Old Testament is MY book. Stay outta there, you'll get your feelings hurt!

[Karen]

I do have to agree with you about women walking behind men, never have witnessed that although a Japanese friend of mine told me her mother did that with her Father and brothers.

I tend to walk behind Paul - he has really long legs, and if we both walk at a "normal speed" he can easily leave me in the dust! It has nothing to do with being submissive, if he's walking quickly for him, I literally have to jog to keep up!

[caseysmom]

Well if anyone saw me and my husband they might see the same thing since I walk with a limp now I am pretty slow...my daughter on crutches beats me!

[carole]

I for one cannot condone stoning anyone to death for adultery, it is barbaric and bizarre, I don't care what anyone say's it is inhumane IMO.

I read that men who do get stoned to death are buried up to their waist whereas women are buried up to their neck,

I certainly do not think anyone should committ adultery by any means, but for goodness sake the punishment should fit the crime, and that is way over the top.

I do respect other's cultures, but this is goes way beyond that, and it needs to be stopped end of.

Yes i am thankful i too live in a country that gives women rights just like men, and freedom of speech and choice,and does not condone inhumane practices.

[lizbud]

I do respect other's cultures, but this is goes way beyond that, and it needs to be stopped end of.

I cannot say that I respect other country's culture or customs when they
treat women this way. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. It cannot be defended
by Religion, Culture or Custom.

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