Stoned to death

[popcornbird]

A woman who has committed adultry and has KILLED her husband....if these accusations are TRUE, then truly, I do not see any injustice in her fate. If these accusations are NOT true, and people have invented lies against her, then it is truly tragic and the world needs to step up for her.

But I repeat, if she had truly committed adultry and murder, then she deserves punishment.

As for whether this punishment applies only to women, I don't know how things are done in Iran, but if things are done according to the religious perspective, according to the laws of Islam, then these are the rules that follow.

Adultry, committed by either a MAN or a WOMAN, has the E-X-A-C-T same punishment.

The government CANNOT punish anyone for adultry unless they have FOUR witnesses first. Tell me how hard it is to find four people who have WITNESSED someone committing this act. Its HARD...most people do this in private, and just this ruling in itself would prevent punishment for the majority of cases.

And in the end, yes, the punishment is stoning.

This is the religious ruling, and not necessarily what countries do, but it is what they should be doing if this is the law that they follow.

And just as a side note...the laws of Christianity also call for the death of a person who commits adultry.

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."


To Moosmom:

Although I agree that in SOME countries, women are 'forced' to cover up, this is NOT the case in the majority of places where women cover. Women covering has nothing to do with cruelty. It has nothing to do with men making them cover. Muslim women, here in the US cover, while living under the same laws as you do.

Why do we cover up? It is for our dignity. We consider our bodies to be sacred and not an open market for men with bad intentions to feast their eyes on. How many sex offenders are out there in this country? How many times to we hear of the terrible crimes they commit against girls and young women in the news. What lures them to these women? There are many such people out there in this world, and the last thing I would want to do is expose myself to them while I am going about my business. Women in the West go out dressing SEXY. For who?..., I wonder. Is it to attract every single man on the streets? Now don't even try to tell me men don't get attracted when they see a beautiful women walking around nearly naked.

So that, my friend, is why we cover. It is our choice, and no one has the right to condemn someone else's choice in their clothing and attire. We all choose what we wear. The covering of the face is optional, which I, by the way, don't do, but I am otherwise covered head to toe when I go out of my house, and I love it, and would never go out without it. Don't judge others with ignorance. Just keep in mind that while you are judging others for covering their bodies and imagining they are oppressed, those others might be judging you and finding it unbelievable when they see how much some women show to every other person on the streets. Some people find THAT to be incredible degrading of oneself.

As to walking behind their husbands, I have been to Eastern countries. Have yet to meet anyone who follows such a thing. Sometimes the husband is fast and ends up in front of his wife, sometimes vice versa, but most of the time, I have only seen couples in all parts of the world, walking side by side, many times hand in hand. Again, don't judge blindly. Have you ever BEEN to other countries?

[Lady's Human]

And just as a side note...the laws of Christianity also call for the death of a person who commits adultry.

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

PCB: Talmudic law and Christian law are not the same thing.

You're quoting one and calling it the other.

John 8:7


So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

The last person I know who had no sin was strung up on a cross about 2000 years ago.

[Lady's Human]

This is the religious ruling, and not necessarily what countries do, but it is what they should be doing if this is the law that they follow.

Which is why I'm extremely thankful I don't live in a theocracy, despite what people think the government of the US is.

Stoning is an extremely barbaric punishment, and should not be practiced.

Sharia law should never be the law of the land.

[popcornbird]

PCB: Talmudic law and Christian law are not the same thing.

You're quoting one and calling it the other.

John 8:7


So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

The last person I know who had no sin was strung up on a cross about 2000 years ago.

Actually, I am not quoting one and calling it the other. As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in the New Testament, you should believe in the laws of the Old Testament. Didn't Jesus say this?:

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

As far as I'm concerned, the Law in the Old Testament is pretty severe, and Jesus, in the New Testament, is saying that he did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

For the sake of argument, even IF you do not believe that, then why are you so quick to condemn Islamic rulings, while completely ignoring Jewish ones?? Do you not see any harsh punishments in the Jewish script?

Regardless, about what Sana is saying...

If any of you have been to any Muslim country, be it Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, whatever...you would know that women covering is not enforced by law and there are tons of women out there who go out in the same way as you see women going out here. It is the media that makes you think every woman in the Middle East is forced to cover up, beaten if she doesn't, and as a Muslim who knows and has seen both the West and the East, I know that is nothing but a bunch of BS. I have relatives in Muslim countries who are more into fashion than the typical American girl, who don't cover at all, and have never been harmed. Women who cover do it by their own choice, as I do. Likewise, men are required by religious law to lower their gaze and not 'stare at' women. Just as covering is not enforced in most countries, lowering the gaze is not enforced in most countries. Religious men do it by their own choice, and yes, they do practice it. I know MANY men, that whenever a group of girls pass in front of them, they look down and avoid staring.

Of course there are good and bad people everywhere, in every culture, and there are some men who are cruel and beat their women, but it is by no means the norm, and as far as I'm concerned, I cannot say I personally know of even one 'abusive/beating' husband. I grew up with a Muslim father who has done nothing but loved us and cared for us our whole lives, played games with us, laughed with us. He is a loving and devoted husband to my mother, and has been for over 35 years. I have a Muslim husband who loves me more than anything and in our nearly 5 years of marriage, has never even scolded me in anger. Perhaps to your surprise, more women in the US convert to Islam than men. When asked why, they say they love how women are respected in the religion. Something to ponder over. A good friend of my husband who became a Muslim said he did so after researching the religion...but what lured him into it was witnessing several Muslim guys walking with their sister at a grocery store, and making sure she didn't have the burden of carrying anything.

Believe your stereotypes as much as you want. Think whatever you want. At the end of the day, you are wrong when you think wrong of others with no basis for your judgement other than the media. I have a dear friend who is a lawyer that has dealt with many cases of domestic abuse (here in the US). She has told me that some cases she comes across are so terrible she comes home in tears, wondering how anyone can do that to their own family. Again, here in the US. Domestic abuse happens everywhere. It is sad. It is terrible. It should never happen. But it happens everywhere, in the East, in the West...everywhere. There will always be some bad people out there, sadly.

Caseysmom, I don't need to trust you when you say there are modest people here. I know there are, and have many friends who are quite modest, and are not Muslim...I'm a Californian, as you are, and I know there are both modest and not so modest people here. I wasn't truely 'criticizing' the 'other side', but I was trying to show how just as they think they can judge others, others might be judging them in the same way for the things they do, and the way they dress.

[Bonny]

popcornbird, Thank you for sharing your culture. You come from a loving family. I have some questions? You have your religion Islam & then their is your culture. If a man of Islam walked by a women of another culture would he lower his eyes or look away? Do women also have to lower their eyes & look away when they see an Islamic a man or men or men of another culture? If that is the case how do you get to meet someone of the opposite sex? Are marriages prearranged by family & is that part of the Islamic religion or culture or both if so. Do the men, women, & children get to worship in the same area in a Mosque? Do you & can you marry outside your religion Islam if you should wish to? Are the men the head of the household like bringing home the wages, or can it be shared where the wife works also? Are there restrictions on careers for men or women that would interfere with the Islamic religion? All these questions but like you said what we hear is what the media puts out there.

[Lady's Human]

PCB, with all due respect, yes, you are.

The New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old Testament, but does not require the Christians convert to Judaism to be Christian.

You cannot quote selected passages of scripture out of context and still get the same meaning. We could debate for ages about this, but I've never seen a church with two sets of dishes to cook a dinner with, and have never seen a church where a ham dinner was out of place.

Tell ya what, I won't quote the Koran, due to contextual issues, you don't quote the bible to me. It's not going to get you anywhere, as for every verse that SEEMS to demand the Old Testament law be followed, I can come up with at least one that doesn't demand it.

As to Muslim countries not requiring females dress a certain way by law? WRONG!

The US has run into many, many diplomatic issues because of US Military uniforms and the fact that we make no distinction between men and women in the service.

[RICHARD]

The US has run into many, many diplomatic issues because of US Military uniforms and the fact that we make no distinction between men and women in the service.

I too fear a woman trained to shoot better than I do.


-----------

Stoned to death, no, but one time I was soooo drunk? I thought I was going to die.

------------

What is it with the Wild and Crazy Sharia Law?

10 lashes and a fine for wearing pants? Does that go on a woman's permanent record.

------------

Holy Mole,

That's one of the Mexican Patron Saints-


Beating up people for wearing pants.

You heard about the woman who was given 20 lashes?

She didn't listen the FIRST time.

[popcornbird]

I come back online after a good amount of time only to find THIS??? I'm starting to think, "Thank God I don't have time for Pet Talk anymore!"

Some of you people here are so hateful, so insultive, so terrible that it is unbelievable, and just incredibly sad. It is a shame, truly, that some expect Muslims to be tolerant of everything, while they go about posting things that would cause any Muslim's blood to boil. I will refrain from commenting, because responding to someone who is worthless is just a waste of time.


To Bonny. I was not ignoring you. I am a busy mother of a young infant who keeps me on my toes, and don't even have time to keep up with my emails anymore. PT has become a last priority for me at this time in life. I don't even log on for weeks, or sometimes months at a time...so don't expect to hear from me quickly.

popcornbird, Thank you for sharing your culture. You come from a loving family. I have some questions? You have your religion Islam & then their is your culture. If a man of Islam walked by a women of another culture would he lower his eyes or look away? Do women also have to lower their eyes & look away when they see an Islamic a man or men or men of another culture? If that is the case how do you get to meet someone of the opposite sex? Are marriages prearranged by family & is that part of the Islamic religion or culture or both if so. Do the men, women, & children get to worship in the same area in a Mosque? Do you & can you marry outside your religion Islam if you should wish to? Are the men the head of the household like bringing home the wages, or can it be shared where the wife works also? Are there restrictions on careers for men or women that would interfere with the Islamic religion? All these questions but like you said what we hear is what the media puts out there.

In answer to your questions...Islam is a religion, and cultures are a seperate issue. Many Muslim countries practice 'cultures' that have nothing to do with Islam, and is just their culture. I don't really follow any culture. I just try my best to be a good Muslim.

If a man walks by a woman of ANY culture, he has to lower his gaze. It does not only apply to Muslim women. In fact, I would assume it applies more to women who are 'showing more', and thus, there is more reason to refrain from staring. Keep in mind that this ruling does not apply to women who are family members. We do not cover at home in front of our family. Women are also required to lower their gaze when around unrelated men, however the requirement of lowering the gaze is directed more strongly towards men than it is to women.

The rulings for marriage are different than the general rule. When interested in marriage, one not only can, but SHOULD look at the intended spouse, talk, and come to the conclusion of whether or not they feel suitable for each other before they proceed. There are different ways in which people meet their spouse. Most often, people get references from family or friends, where a parent, sibling, friend, etc. would tell the person, "I know such and such girl who is a wonderful person, beautiful, intelligent, has good manners, loving, etc....whatever one thinks about her.....I think she might be a good option for you. Why don't you look into it?" If the person looking to get married is interested, he or she usually tries to arrange a meeting with the girl/guy, and their family if possible. If they like each other, things usually move forward. If not, they keep looking. We don't date, and we don't go out with the opposite sex without a third person, but most of us get married and love our spouses more than anyone in the world.

Marriages are not 'prearranged' by family (unless the family is very cultural and not really religious), but the potential spouse is often introduced to the suitor by family, or friends. 'Arranged marriages' (where bride meets groom on wedding day ) are actually more of a Hindu custom, not an Islamic one.

About mosques...it depends on the mosque. Most mosques have a seperate hall for men and a seperate one for women, and children go wherever they want, but others just have the men in the front and the women in the back in the same hall.

Its generally not recommended to marry outside the religion. I wouldn't do it even if it were permissible. There is just no way a couple would be able to have a household together and raise kids together when their ideas of raising a family are so different. It would clash, regardless of how much you love each other.

Men are required to take on the responsibility of earning for their family. It is a requirement for them...they have to take that responsibility. Women on the other hand have the option. Women in Islam are allowed to work just as men are, but the financial burden to raise a family is not on their shoulders. In other words, if they wish to work, they can and most do, but they are not required to take this responsibility. There are jobs that both men and women would be forbidden from doing...for example, working at a bank, as working with interest based loans, accounts, etc. is forbidden in our religion. Working at a casino would be wrong for both sexes. Working at a nightclub would be forbidden...etc. The other typical jobs (doctor, teacher, engineer, salesperson, etc. is all allowed for both genders).

I hope I answered your questions.

[Cataholic]

There are jobs that both men and women would be forbidden from doing...for example, working at a bank, as working with interest based loans, accounts, etc. is forbidden in our religion. Working at a casino would be wrong for both sexes. Working at a nightclub would be forbidden...etc. The other typical jobs (doctor, teacher, engineer, salesperson, etc. is all allowed for both genders).

What about lawyers...he he he...

[wombat2u2004]

To Moosmom:

Although I agree that in SOME countries, women are 'forced' to cover up, this is NOT the case in the majority of places where women cover. Women covering has nothing to do with cruelty. It has nothing to do with men making them cover. Muslim women, here in the US cover, while living under the same laws as you do.

Why do we cover up? It is for our dignity. We consider our bodies to be sacred and not an open market for men with bad intentions to feast their eyes on. How many sex offenders are out there in this country? How many times to we hear of the terrible crimes they commit against girls and young women in the news. What lures them to these women? There are many such people out there in this world, and the last thing I would want to do is expose myself to them while I am going about my business. Women in the West go out dressing SEXY. For who?..., I wonder. Is it to attract every single man on the streets? Now don't even try to tell me men don't get attracted when they see a beautiful women walking around nearly naked.

So that, my friend, is why we cover. It is our choice, and no one has the right to condemn someone else's choice in their clothing and attire. We all choose what we wear. The covering of the face is optional, which I, by the way, don't do, but I am otherwise covered head to toe when I go out of my house, and I love it, and would never go out without it. Don't judge others with ignorance. Just keep in mind that while you are judging others for covering their bodies and imagining they are oppressed, those others might be judging you and finding it unbelievable when they see how much some women show to every other person on the streets. Some people find THAT to be incredible degrading of oneself.

As to walking behind their husbands, I have been to Eastern countries. Have yet to meet anyone who follows such a thing. Sometimes the husband is fast and ends up in front of his wife, sometimes vice versa, but most of the time, I have only seen couples in all parts of the world, walking side by side, many times hand in hand. Again, don't judge blindly. Have you ever BEEN to other countries?

Thousands of Iranian women have been cautioned over their poor Islamic dress this week and several hundred arrested in the capital Tehran in the most fierce crackdown on what's known as "bad hijab" for more than a decade.
It is the talk of the town. The latest police crackdown on Islamic dress has angered many Iranians - male, female, young and old.


But Iranian TV has reported that an opinion poll conducted in Tehran found 86% of people were in favour of the crackdown - a statistic that is surprising given the strength of feeling against this move.

Police cars are stationed outside major shopping centres in Tehran.

They are stopping pedestrians and even cars - warning female drivers not to show any hair - and impounding the vehicles and arresting the women if they argue back.

Middle-aged women, foreign tourists and journalists have all been harassed, not just the young and fashionably dressed.

Individual choice

Overnight the standard of what is acceptable dress has slipped back.


I want the whole world to know that they oppress us and all we can do is put up with it

Tofiq, 15

Hard-won freedoms - like the right to wear a colourful headscarf - have been snatched away.

It may sound trivial but Iranian women have found ways of expressing their individuality and returning to drab colours like black, grey and dark blue is not something they will accept easily.

"If we want to do something we will do it anyway, all this is total nonsense," says a young girl, heavily made up and dressed up.

She believes Islamic dress should be something personal - whether you're swathed in a black chador or dressed in what she calls "more normal clothes".

Interestingly many women who choose to wear the all enveloping chador agree - saying it's a personal choice and shouldn't be forced on people.

"This year is much worse than before because the newspapers and the TV have given the issue a lot of coverage compared to last year; it wasn't this bad before," says Shabnam who's out shopping with her friend.

Permission denied

At the start of every summer the police say they will enforce the Islamic dress code, but this year has been unusually harsh.

Thousands of women have been cautioned by police over their dress, some have been obliged to sign statements that they will do better in the future, and some face court cases against them.


Even shop mannequins considered "too revealing" are dealt with

Though the authorities want coverage internally to scare women - they don't want the story broadcast abroad.

The BBC's cameraman was detained when he tried to film the police at work and the government denied us permission to go on patrol with the police.

"Really we don't have any security," complains Shabam's friend Leyla.

"Since we came out this morning many people we met have continuously warned us to be careful about our headscarves and to wear them further forward because they are arresting women who are dressed like this," she says.

Boutique owners are furious. Some shops have been sealed - others warned not to sell tight revealing clothing.

One shopkeeper selling evening dresses told us the moral police had ordered him to saw off the breasts of his mannequins because they were too revealing.

He said he wasn't the only shop to receive this strange instruction.

Respect

There's even been less traffic on the streets because some women are not venturing out - fearful they will be harassed.

And it's not even safe in a car. Taxi agencies have received a circular warning them not to carry a "bad hijabi".

"They have said we shouldn't carry passengers who wear bad Islamic dress and if we do we have to warn them to respect the Islamic dress code even inside the car," said one taxi driver.

And it's not just women who are being targeted this year.

Young men are being cautioned for wearing short sleeved shirts or for their hairstyles.

Morad - a hairdresser whose gelled hair is made to stand straight up - says it's necessary for him to look like this to attract customers.

"These last few days I don't dare walk down the main roads looking like this case I get arrested," he says.

"I use the side streets and alleys."

Morad is scared because his friends have told him they've seen the police seize young men and forcibly cut their hair if it's too long.

Fifteen-year-old Tofiq who'd also gelled his hair to stand on end said he too was afraid but he wasn't going to change.

"I want the whole world to know that they oppress us and all we can do is put up with it," he said.

Some parents have complained that harassing the young over their clothing will only push them to leave the country.

But one MP has said those Iranians who cannot cope with Islamic laws should leave.

Some commentators have suggested that the government is conducting this crackdown to distract attention from the rising cost of living in Iran and increasing tension with the international community over the nuclear issue.

If so, it's a strategy that risks alienating people who've got used to years of relative social freedom and do not want to return to the early days of the revolution when dress rules were much more tightly enforced.

[Lady's Human]

The full covering has nothing to do with respect for women, it has everything to do with controlling women.

How, praytell, can you justify covering yourself so men don't look at you?

Men aren't supposed to control themselves?

That tells me all the burden of committing a sin is on the woman, and none on the male.

Your explanation of this is a codification of the "she had it coming" defense in a rape trial.

[wombat2u2004]

The full covering has nothing to do with respect for women, it has everything to do with controlling women.

Yup.

[caseysmom]

I have been to Iran and the majority of the women and men do not like the laws, especially the younger generation. Men are expected to wear long sleeves but women do indeed take the brunt of the chauvinistic laws.

As far as seeing nothing wrong with her fate if the accusations are true. Do you believe she should receive a fair trial by her peers? Do you think stoning is not barbaric?

It is quite possible to dress modestly without a full hijab.

PCB, you say nobody has the right to condemn you for how you dress but you are being very comndemning of how "women in the west" dress. Trust me there are modest women here.

I do have to agree with you about women walking behind men, never have witnessed that although a Japanese friend of mine told me her mother did that with her Father and brothers.

[smokey the elder]

[sarcasm] They must have a very low crime rate in Iran if the cops have all this time to spend on being the fashion police. [/sarcasm].

I think both sides of the Muslim dress code debate have valid points. Clearly, Popcornbird is in favor of it and it's her choice. But the dress code issue seems to be kind of missing the whole point, IMO. To me it's superficial, and maybe less emphasis should be placed on it and more on the five pillars of Islam.

[Catty1]

LH - I agree with your distinction between Talmudic law and Christian law.

It seems, though, that many Christians do refer to 'Old Testament' quotes to justify quashing the rights of homosexuals and other groups.

I am no scholar, but I don't recall Christ being quoted as saying there was anything wrong with sex. As for adultery, he did use that 'sinless can cast the first stone'.

However, I think the NT came out against divorce, so folks may want to revert to Moses on that one.