Is the President attempting to indoctrinate children?

[Karen]

Where did I accuse the president of anything? I asked a question.

"Is the President attempting to indoctrinate children?"

is your title of this thread, so while technically you are asking a question, you are implying an accusation.

Sorry to pull a lefty tactic but you left it open.

My definition of socialism?

Instead of teaching a man to fish, you take, by force, fish from the fisherman and give it to those who dont know how to fish.

Socialism is a forced, false, system of equality.

And so how are public schools socialism? Ain't no American school that turns out all "equal" students, but they do attempt at least to provide students with a a basic education, to do with what they will.

And your definition of socialism sounds more like communism to me.

[blue]

"Is the President attempting to indoctrinate children?"

is your title of this thread, so while technically you are asking a question, you are implying an accusation.

Asking questions is now accusatory? I did not attach my own bias to the question, nor did I imply my bias to the question.

And so how are public schools socialism? Ain't no American school that turns out all "equal" students, but they do attempt at least to provide students with a a basic education, to do with what they will.

Not socialism, its a socialist system. Take from everybody to benifit a few.

And your definition of socialism sounds more like communism to me.

The end result is the same, so why split hairs?

[Karen]

Asking questions is now accusatory? I did not attach my own bias to the question, nor did I imply my bias to the question.

Not asking a question, the word choice holds its own bias.

Do not these three questions sound different?

"Is the President trying to indoctrinate children?"
"Is the President trying to teach children?"
"Is the President trying to speak to children?"

Not socialism, its a socialist system. Take from everybody to benifit a few.

How does public education "benefit a few?"

The end result is the same, so why split hairs?

Wars have been fought over socialism versus communism. I hardly call that splitting hairs.

[blue]

Not asking a question, the word choice holds its own bias.

Do not these three questions sound different?

"Is the President trying to indoctrinate children?"
"Is the President trying to teach children?"
"Is the President trying to speak to children?"

The title of the linked poll is "Is President Barack Obama attempting to indoctrinate children with his upcoming back-to-school speech?". Ild say the title of this thread is much less biased.

How does public education "benefit a few?"

More taxpayers then students.

Wars have been fought over socialism versus communism. I hardly call that splitting hairs.

Wars have been fought over liberty versus tyranny, socialism and communism have more in common then not. I would call it splitting hairs.

[Lady's Human]

For someone who is normally strict a constructionist, your stance on public education is puzzling.

It is mandated, first and foremost ,in the constitutions of the many states. This is the ultimate expression of states' rights, as Washington D.C. has helped enforce educational requirements in the state constitutions. Just as certain federal agencies are mandated through the US Constitution and taxes/revenue collection methods are mandated to maintain them, education requirements and taxes to fund them are mandated in state constitutions.

[blue]

For someone who is normally strict a constructionist, your stance on public education is puzzling.

It is mandated, first and foremost ,in the constitutions of the many states. This is the ultimate expression of states' rights, as Washington D.C. has helped enforce educational requirements in the state constitutions. Just as certain federal agencies are mandated through the US Constitution and taxes/revenue collection methods are mandated to maintain them, education requirements and taxes to fund them are mandated in state constitutions.

Not first and formost, from article 7.

§ 1. Public Education

The legislature shall by general law establish and maintain a system of public schools open to all children of the State, and may provide for other public educational institutions. Schools and institutions so established shall be free from sectarian control. No money shall be paid from public funds for the direct benefit of any religious or other private educational institution.

What about parents who dont want to take the public option for their childrens schooling? They still pay taxes, and then they have to pay extra to have their children schooled outside of the public system. In effect they are being punished for educating their children outside of the states controll.

[Lady's Human]

No, they are making a choice.

Before we had children, my wife and I paid taxes to support a school system.

Should we have been exempt from taxes as we had no children in the system? No, as education produces better citizens. (which could be easily interpreted as being for the general welfare of the state)

If your schools are failing, get involved, whether you have children or not. There's no clause in school district meetings that I'm aware of which require you to have children in the system to attend the meetings, speak your peace, and exercise your rights as citizens.

School board officials are elected, not appointed. Don't like the way the school system in your municipality is being run? Vote 'em out.

The failure of schools is as much the fault of the parents and other citizens in the school districts as it is the teachers, if not more so.

[Puckstop31]

For someone who is normally strict a constructionist, your stance on public education is puzzling.

It is mandated, first and foremost ,in the constitutions of the many states. This is the ultimate expression of states' rights, as Washington D.C. has helped enforce educational requirements in the state constitutions. Just as certain federal agencies are mandated through the US Constitution and taxes/revenue collection methods are mandated to maintain them, education requirements and taxes to fund them are mandated in state constitutions.

Thanks LH. I was hoping smoebody would jump in with this.

Personally. I have no problem paying taxes at a LOCAL level to fund a public school system. Further allowing that LOCAL authority the ability to define the curriculum. This would in effect give parents some level of choice.

I take a large issue with fedzilla getting invovled. They place unfunded mandates on the states. They also hold states hostage by not providing other "funding" if they do not teach as fedzilla says they should. Fedzilla makes education a very political thing. What politician runs for office wihtout talking about "money for education", as if MORE money will fix all the "problems"?

All in all, just my $.02. Our children will be homeschooled until at least age 12, at which time will be given a choice, if we think they are ready to really think for themselves. I'd be willing to guranteee that should they choose to go to public schools at that time, it will either be short lived or they will be way ahead of the others. Thats not me simply thumping my chest as a proud parent... Home schooling offers the ability to adjust curriculum to the childs learning style. Personalized education if you will. It takes a dedicated parent who has the time to do all the work involved. We as a family are fortunate to be able to provide that to Hannah and "the next one". Also, I am inspired by my best buddies kids. He has 4 home schooled daughters who are simply amazing. They are smart, polite, have many friends and do all the normal kid things. The oldest, 13, takes a college level Latin class.


Blue - I think it really does behoove you to pay those dang taxes, on the local level, to provide public schools. In today's world, it is just not realistic that all parents can provide for their own kids education. But it is very important for us as a country to have a educated population. Please take into account everything else I have said in this post though. Keep fedzilla OUT of it. It would be nice if we could ditch the public school unions too. I might send Hannah to a public school then.

[RICHARD]

All in all, just my $.02. Our children will be homeschooled until at least age 12, at which time will be given a choice, if we think they are ready to really think for themselves. I'd be willing to guranteee that should they choose to go to public schools at that time, it will either be short lived or they will be way ahead of the others. Thats not me simply thumping my chest as a proud parent... Home schooling offers the ability to adjust curriculum to the childs learning style. Personalized education if you will. It takes a dedicated parent who has the time to do all the work involved. We as a family are fortunate to be able to provide that to Hannah and "the next one". Also, I am inspired by my best buddies kids. He has 4 home schooled daughters who are simply amazing. They are smart, polite, have many friends and do all the normal kid things. The oldest, 13, takes a college level Latin class.

DUDE!

I don't have any kids so this will come as BS and not worth much.

I was pretty much against home schooling from the standpoint of "only people in cults chose that road". The next opinion was the way of the over protective parent-I don't want my kids to get involved with XXXXXX- fill in your phobia here.

Not any more.

My parents spent GOOD money to send us kids thru the 'boot camp of Catholic School'. Only my sister got thru the k-11 experience, LOL she turned out the be the most defective.

The rest of us stayed in until they found it was way too expensive and the "your Third, fourth fifth six, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth kids learn free!" coupons/offers were no good anymore.

My parents were not THAT prolific, but paying for two kids and getting the other two educated for free was a good deal.

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I went into Jr. High about two grades above what my peers were at. Because I came from an enviroment where you were taught to 'be smart' and compete for your grades, I was picked on because I made the people in my classes look stupid.

It wasn't that they were stupid. They just didn't come from the place that demanded they learn and take pride in it. I skated thru high school and the college courses that I took for my job.

Why? Sister Mary Torquemada's way of beating info into me.
Sister Mary H. Himmler's way of running the cam-ah, school.

I am being facetious here. Looking back on the experience? I didn't really enjoy all the BS around learning, but am thankful that I did attend that school.

I am a huge proponent of schools and probably could afford to pay another dollar or two-literally-for the local school system.

If everyone tossed a dollar into the hat, how much money would come from the community as large as the City of El Lay?

Even to save the 'small' classes like Music, Art and Science- I am a huge science geek and nothing would make me happier than seeing a few bucks get kicked down for THAT part of schooling....

Anyway,
With all the budget cuts and the teacher's getting beat down for trying to get kids to learn?

Keep the kids at home, where the parents can control what the kiddies learn!

---------------------------

Here's a little side light to the topic.


TEACH KIDS CIVICS. I have nieces and nephews that are very bright and when we get into conversations about current events I cringe when they ask me an honest question about stuff I learned when I was a kid.

I could probably whip the arse of any fifth grader on paper, in a quiz or spelling bee?

But, seeing the 'adults' that should have two to three times the wisdom and smarts of the next generation, fail miserably when it comes to providing a good base for learning, competition and instilling a good work ethic for their children?

I am glad I have no children.

I am an 'intelligence whore' and probably would have had the kid who graduated college at the age of 11. Then died when the kid flipped out and stabbed me in my sleep, all because he would have been forced to learn 26 out of the 24 hours in a day.

[blue]

Yeah, John Adams was one hell of a Marxist.

Pres. Adams wrote the Massachusetts State Constitution of 1780, which served as the role model for much of the rest of the United States.

To quote:


Chapter V, Section II.
The Encouragement of Literature, etc.

Wisdom, and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools and grammar schools in the towns; to encourage private societies and public institutions, rewards and immunities, for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and a natural history of the country; to countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and frugality, honesty and punctuality in their dealings; sincerity, good humor, and all social affections, and generous sentiments among the people.

Good quote, but Mr Adams was referring to the greater good for individuals, not the Marxist ideal of the greater good for the greater good. I still agree that any education is better then none.

Chapter 5 is not first and foremost.

Blue - I think it really does behoove you to pay those dang taxes, on the local level, to provide public schools. In today's world, it is just not realistic that all parents can provide for their own kids education. But it is very important for us as a country to have a educated population. Please take into account everything else I have said in this post though. Keep fedzilla OUT of it. It would be nice if we could ditch the public school unions too. I might send Hannah to a public school then.

Actually I have much less issues with my property taxes going to public schools since I moved out of Anchorage. The Mat Su Borough has much less waste and frivolous spending then A-Town when it comes to the public school system.