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Thread: An Officer's Obligation

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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizbud View Post
    Violating the Constitution is just a policy issue??? It is more than that.
    Interesting... I'd love to take this down the road of current economic policies... Ya can't have it both ways Liz. Either you support a strict constructionist view of the Constitution, or you don't. That includes the 2nd Amendment and more importantly, the 10th. There has not been a Federal Government since William McKinley, that really respected the Constitution. Their actions or their tolerance of actions say it all.

    Remember, a opinion poll.... An election victory... Does not grant carte blanche for a elected offical or group of elected officials to ignore the Constitution. So in a way, I agree with you. But you have to be consistent.

    Waterboarding is torture. We actually conducted trials (war crimes) and
    punished Japanese, some with death, after WW II. We can not change
    our stance on definition of torture, when it suits us.
    If the United States has formally defined what is and what is not torture, I have not seen it. If it has been formally and legally defined, could you refer me to it?

    I agree with you that the United States should not torture. So, to help our intelligence community do their job it should be formally and legally defined.

    Also, do you have a comment about President Obama's administration possibly setting the precedent that it is OK to prosecute policy actions of previous administrations?
    "Unlike most of you, I am not a nut."

    - Homer Simpson


    "If the enemy opens the door, you must race in."

    - Sun Tzu - Art of War

  2. #2
    It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

    The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

    Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

    Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

    And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

    Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

    We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.
    Well... Yes. They all raised their hands and swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. Once upon a time, a persons WORD meant something.

    The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.
    I believe the military is made of EXTRAORDINARY citizens. Citizens who have willingly sacrificed a bit of their freedom to protect everybody elses.

    Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.
    Now only if they would ACT like it. Rather than act like they are better and smarter than us.....

    Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

    And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

    Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

    We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."
    So... Are you defending the use of torture? Or are you making an excuse for it?
    "Unlike most of you, I am not a nut."

    - Homer Simpson


    "If the enemy opens the door, you must race in."

    - Sun Tzu - Art of War

  4. #4
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    So with ES' argument, we shouldnt hold police officers to a higher standard either?
    I have a HUGE SIG!!!!



    My Dogs. Erp the Cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by blue View Post
    So with ES' argument, we shouldnt hold police officers to a higher standard either?
    How interesting Blue, that you think of holding some people to a lower standard...rather than holding all of us to a higher standard.

    Predictable, but interesting.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    How interesting Blue, that you think of holding some people to a lower standard...rather than holding all of us to a higher standard.

    Predictable, but interesting.
    Please expand on your logic.

    ETA: Where have I said we should all be held to the same standard, higher or lower?
    I have a HUGE SIG!!!!



    My Dogs. Erp the Cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

    The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

    Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

    Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

    And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

    Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

    We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."
    From the mister that made an example that the military shouldnt be held to a higher standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    Hey great idea. No military has EVER needed civilian oversight. Nope, nope...NO MILITARY has EVER gone too far....
    Last edited by blue; 05-07-2009 at 10:30 PM. Reason: clarification, I think.
    I have a HUGE SIG!!!!



    My Dogs. Erp the Cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by blue View Post
    From the mister that made an example that the military shouldnt be held to a higher standard.
    "Trust, but verify"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    "Trust, but verify"
    Dont you mean. Товарищ, доверие, но проверяй.
    I have a HUGE SIG!!!!



    My Dogs. Erp the Cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy Pelosi
    As I said in my statement of December 9, 2007: 'I was briefed on interrogation techniques the (Bush) administration was considering using in the future. The administration advised that legal counsel for both the CIA and the Department of Justice had concluded that the techniques were legal.
    Source.

    So Liz, what did you find that contradicts Mrs Pelosi, on what constitutes torture?

    And ES, it seems we cant доверие Mrs Pelosi and we cant проверяй her stance either...
    Last edited by blue; 05-09-2009 at 09:53 PM. Reason: edited for ES.
    I have a HUGE SIG!!!!



    My Dogs. Erp the Cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by blue View Post
    Dont you mean. Товарищ, доверие, но проверяй.
    No.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    No.
    So expound on what you where trying to say then.

    Because , Comrade, what you said was, доверие, и проверить.
    Last edited by blue; 05-09-2009 at 11:25 PM.
    I have a HUGE SIG!!!!



    My Dogs. Erp the Cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckstop31 View Post

    If the United States has formally defined what is and what is not torture, I have not seen it. If it has been formally and legally defined, could you refer me to it?

    I would have loved to discuss the US Constitution, that is before I
    read this quote. If you seriously don't know the answer already, there is
    no chance of intelligent discourse. I don't have time to be your tudor.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizbud View Post
    I would have loved to discuss the US Constitution, that is before I
    read this quote. If you seriously don't know the answer already, there is
    no chance of intelligent discourse. I don't have time to be your tudor.

    First, its tutor not tudor. The Tudor's were a royal house that once ruled England. FYI.

    Next, it was a simple question. You first quote an article, stating you "think" you found the answer, but did not say what that answer is. Then you stated "waterboarding IS torture". You said it with a confidence that lead me to believe you saw something I had not. So I just did little research and I now know that there is a legal definition of torture. Ya learn something new everyday.

    Next, with all due respect, I find it funny that you, of all people, are saying "there is no chance of intelligent discourse." Thats all I ever wanted out of you. Like I say all the time, I seek out differing points of view. Yet you never seem to actually tell us what you think in threads like this. Why is that?

    Also, again with all due respect, but if you can actually tutor me about the Constitution, I welcome it. I'll even start a fresh thread in a bit. I say this because I maintain a history degree, one where I spent most of my senior electives studying world governments. Coupled with a adult life long intrest into history. I like to think I am pretty well read. Now, don't take this like I am posturing, because I also know well enough that I don't know everything. Thus, I seek out differing points of view. I would happily welcome a discussion with you.
    "Unlike most of you, I am not a nut."

    - Homer Simpson


    "If the enemy opens the door, you must race in."

    - Sun Tzu - Art of War

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckstop31 View Post
    I say this because I maintain a history degree, one where I spent most of my senior electives studying world governments. Coupled with a adult life long intrest into history. I like to think I am pretty well read. Now, don't take this like I am posturing, because I also know well enough that I don't know everything. Thus, I seek out differing points of view. I would happily welcome a discussion with you.
    First, it's "interest" not "intrest" . Now just how do you" maintain" a
    degree? Do they take it back if you don't change the oil every 5,000 miles?
    I've Been Boo'd

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    Today is the oldest you've ever been, and the youngest you'll ever be again.

    Eleanor Roosevelt

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