An Officer's Obligation

[Puckstop31]

I wanted to find out if all military (Officers & enlisted) folks had a duty
to disobey a unlawful order. I think I found an answer....

http://www.historians.org/projects/g...Criminals7.htm

Interesting article. But I don't think there is any firm conclusion in it. As I read it, it presents a varied group of 'answers'.


You say you think you found the answer. What do you think the answer is? I am genuinely curious.

I'll offer my opinion, having served in combat. It's hard to describe the feelings, pressure and emotions you experience when in direct combat. In some situations, it might be "easy" to determine what is and what is not an unlawful order. In many others, it might not be. Also, from an lawyers point of view, it would be very easy in some instances to make a very viable "temporary insanity" defence. For instance, the day my very good friend was killed in action....by a kid....we were trying to help feed. Had I caved in to my most base of emotions that day, one might very well label me a criminal. Lets just say it is very easy to judge people who do certain things in such situations. So we need to be very careful to not make snap judgements whne it comes to accusations of such crimes. This is not to say that such crimes happen as I am sure they do.

Now, as for non combat issues... "Torture" Lets put this issue to bed. The US Attorney General, in conjunction with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the JAG departments of all 4 branches need to come up with a FIRM definition of what, to the United States, torture is. We own that, at the very least, to the fine men and women in the varied branches of our intelligence community.

Finally, what do you think about charging Bush Administration people with "war crimes" for torture? Do you really think setting a precedent like that is a good thing? By that I mean being able to make a crime out of policy issues?

[lizbud]

Now, as for non combat issues... "Torture" Lets put this issue to bed. The US Attorney General, in conjunction with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the JAG departments of all 4 branches need to come up with a FIRM definition of what, to the United States, torture is. We own that, at the very least, to the fine men and women in the varied branches of our intelligence community.

Violating the Constitution is just a policy issue??? It is more than that.
Waterboarding is torture. We actually conducted trials (war crimes) and
punished Japanese, some with death, after WW II. We can not change
our stance on definition of torture, when it suits us.

[Puckstop31]

Violating the Constitution is just a policy issue??? It is more than that.

Interesting... I'd love to take this down the road of current economic policies... Ya can't have it both ways Liz. Either you support a strict constructionist view of the Constitution, or you don't. That includes the 2nd Amendment and more importantly, the 10th. There has not been a Federal Government since William McKinley, that really respected the Constitution. Their actions or their tolerance of actions say it all.

Remember, a opinion poll.... An election victory... Does not grant carte blanche for a elected offical or group of elected officials to ignore the Constitution. So in a way, I agree with you. But you have to be consistent.

Waterboarding is torture. We actually conducted trials (war crimes) and
punished Japanese, some with death, after WW II. We can not change
our stance on definition of torture, when it suits us.

If the United States has formally defined what is and what is not torture, I have not seen it. If it has been formally and legally defined, could you refer me to it?

I agree with you that the United States should not torture. So, to help our intelligence community do their job it should be formally and legally defined.

Also, do you have a comment about President Obama's administration possibly setting the precedent that it is OK to prosecute policy actions of previous administrations?

[Edwina's Secretary]

It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."

[Puckstop31]

It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

Well... Yes. They all raised their hands and swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. Once upon a time, a persons WORD meant something.

The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

I believe the military is made of EXTRAORDINARY citizens. Citizens who have willingly sacrificed a bit of their freedom to protect everybody elses.

Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

Now only if they would ACT like it. Rather than act like they are better and smarter than us.....

Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."

So... Are you defending the use of torture? Or are you making an excuse for it?

[blue]

So with ES' argument, we shouldnt hold police officers to a higher standard either?

[Edwina's Secretary]

So with ES' argument, we shouldnt hold police officers to a higher standard either?

How interesting Blue, that you think of holding some people to a lower standard...rather than holding all of us to a higher standard.

Predictable, but interesting.

[blue]

It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."

From the mister that made an example that the military shouldnt be held to a higher standard.

Hey great idea. No military has EVER needed civilian oversight. Nope, nope...NO MILITARY has EVER gone too far....

[Edwina's Secretary]

From the mister that made an example that the military shouldnt be held to a higher standard.

"Trust, but verify"

[blue]

"Trust, but verify"

Dont you mean. Товарищ, доверие, но проверяй.

[lizbud]

If the United States has formally defined what is and what is not torture, I have not seen it. If it has been formally and legally defined, could you refer me to it?

I would have loved to discuss the US Constitution, that is before I
read this quote. If you seriously don't know the answer already, there is
no chance of intelligent discourse. I don't have time to be your tudor.

[Puckstop31]

I would have loved to discuss the US Constitution, that is before I
read this quote. If you seriously don't know the answer already, there is
no chance of intelligent discourse. I don't have time to be your tudor.

First, its tutor not tudor. The Tudor's were a royal house that once ruled England. FYI.

Next, it was a simple question. You first quote an article, stating you "think" you found the answer, but did not say what that answer is. Then you stated "waterboarding IS torture". You said it with a confidence that lead me to believe you saw something I had not. So I just did little research and I now know that there is a legal definition of torture. Ya learn something new everyday.

Next, with all due respect, I find it funny that you, of all people, are saying "there is no chance of intelligent discourse." Thats all I ever wanted out of you. Like I say all the time, I seek out differing points of view. Yet you never seem to actually tell us what you think in threads like this. Why is that?

Also, again with all due respect, but if you can actually tutor me about the Constitution, I welcome it. I'll even start a fresh thread in a bit. I say this because I maintain a history degree, one where I spent most of my senior electives studying world governments. Coupled with a adult life long intrest into history. I like to think I am pretty well read. Now, don't take this like I am posturing, because I also know well enough that I don't know everything. Thus, I seek out differing points of view. I would happily welcome a discussion with you.

[lizbud]

I say this because I maintain a history degree, one where I spent most of my senior electives studying world governments. Coupled with a adult life long intrest into history. I like to think I am pretty well read. Now, don't take this like I am posturing, because I also know well enough that I don't know everything. Thus, I seek out differing points of view. I would happily welcome a discussion with you.

First, it's "interest" not "intrest" . Now just how do you" maintain" a
degree? Do they take it back if you don't change the oil every 5,000 miles?

[Puckstop31]

First, it's "interest" not "intrest" .

Touche'

Now just how do you" maintain" a
degree? Do they take it back if you don't change the oil every 5,000 miles?

Dip...Dodge...Duck...and.......Dodge. That was great movie, eh?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Now just how do you" maintain" a
degree? Do they take it back if you don't change the oil every 5,000 miles?

My degree has an unconditional warranty... But I do have to rotate the tires every now and then!