Vote Here!

[popcornbird]

I'm thrilled. This election has been wonderful. Obama won. California voters passed Prop 8. I officially lost 10 pounds this month. (LOL) So yes, I am thrilled...about many things at the same time. This also goes to say, the majority of California believes marriage is between man and woman, as does the entire nation (the fact that gay marriage is illegal in every state besides Massachusettes is clear proof of what the majority in America wants and believes in). No need to fight or scream or pass lawsuits. The people have spoken...TWICE...and it is clear what California believes in.

For those of you who wish to leave California because of this...I guess Massachusetts is the only option, because the other states are only stronger against gay marriages than California.

For those of you who commented on my kids (or future kids), I can only say that I intend to be a loving, caring, compassionate parent, who will teach her children right from wrong and wrong from right, who will try to instill in them good moral values, respect for others, and most importantly, I will try my best to raise them up as strong Believers in God Almighty. I intend to make it clear to my children that life is not a fantasy or storybook. In life, we do NOT always get everything we want. In life, we do not always get to have what we want, be with whom we want, or live in a situation that we want. It does not only apply to this issue. Life is not a fantasy. Reality is different from what we imagine, and for those of us who are young, we realize it quickly once we get married and start living as responsible adults in the real world, with all burdens of life on our shoulders. Everything in life is not possible, and everything in life is not acceptable.

Imagine if someone falls in love with another person, and loves that person to the point that he/she cannot imagine life without him/her. Now get this. The person who she considers the 'love of her life'...the person she dreams of, the person she wants to commit to is already married. Can she marry him? NO! Can she be with him? No. Can she live the rest of her life with him? No. Why? Because it isn't going to happen. Somethings are wrong, and we need to learn to accept that. Sometimes marrying the person you 'love' isn't the right choice. Sometimes people destroy their lives by marrying the person they fell in love with, and married JUST because they loved that person. Love, while a serious factor in marriage, is NOT the only bases of a union.

I am a person who is strongly against discrimination in any form. I cannot tolerate people who discriminate against people who are black because they are black, nor can I stand people who discriminate against whites because they are white. I cannot stand people who differentiate between the rich and poor. I am not an advocate of discrimination...nor is anyone else who voted yes to prop 8. I just don't believe ANYONE is supposed to marry the same sex. People who call themselves gay CAN marry. No one is preventing them from finding the love of their life in the opposite gender. If they have the right body parts (male or female), then they can marry people of the opposite sex, just like everyone else does. Like I have said before, and I know I will make some of you laugh by saying this, but you cannot make a computer work by plugging its plug into a plug. It just won't work. Try as hard as you might...that computer of your's will never turn on, will never function, will never help you in any way. Now get an outlet for the plug, and the computer will be functioning great in no time.

Men and women are like that. They are made to 'fit' into each other. That's the way our bodies are made, and that includes the bodies of people who call themselves gay. The action that men and women do together is impossible for people of the same sex to do together. This is why I say it is unnatural. It is. If it wasn't, then they would fit into each other perfectly, just like a man and a woman, but they don't...and a FACT: they never will. When a man and woman are married and have a child together, that child is a part of both of them. That child is made out of a part of his father, and a part of his mother. The development of a child is very, very beautiful. It is impossible for any 'gay couple' to have a child of their own, together, a child that is a part of both of them. Truly, it is impossible. If they get a sperm donor, the daddy is an unknown, and the other partner has nothing to do with the child. They can never have a child of their OWN.

There is a purpose of two genders. There is a purpose of a mother and a father. Kids need both, and while some children in certain situations don't get to live with both, the ideal situation is that a child has both mom and dad. Moms and dads are not exactly the same. Now don't even try to tell me we're in the 21st century, and there's no difference in a mom and a dad in this day and age. There is. Find me one father who can successfully nurse his newborn, and then tell me you found one that's the same. They are not the same. Without insemenation, there can be no baby. Without a womb, there can be no baby. Love makes babies..and babies are born in families, into marriages. Besides, right now, in the 21st century, gay marriage is illegal in almost every country in the world. This includes our own. That should tell you something. Most human beings that exist in the 21st century, believe and KNOW that marriage is only between a man and a woman. Its that simple.

I don't deny that people can have feelings for each other, nor do I judge people for having feelings of affection for other human beings. I don't, and never had a problem with people of the same gender holding hands, or giving each other little kisses (NOTE: I do not mean romantic/french kissing here). In fact, for me, it is completely normal to see guys, friends holding hands and walking. That isn't a 'gay' thing. That is just affection for someone you care about. The problem I have is when people ACT on their feelings in a lustful manner. The problem is when it becomes sexual. Sexual behavior is not always acceptable. Homosexuality comes in that category. So does incest...hence, my reasoning for comparing the two together. Both are immoral types of sexual behavior. Fight with me all you will....the majority of the world agrees with me on this. Your arguments won't make a difference.

Before I finish off typing and go to attend the soup cooking on my stove, I'd like to address Pickle's 'we have a creationist amongst us' comment. Oh wow...like everyone on PT is a non-believer. I have been a member of PT for many, many years (my estimate is 6 years but I'm not sure), and know many religious people here, as well as people who are not that religious, but most definitely believe in God and the fact that He Created us. As far as I know, most, or a very large number of people on PT believe in God, and rightly so. I cannot imagine that things have changed here to the extent that everyone has changed their ways and beliefs. We did not all fall out of the sky. I'm not even going to get into that debate right now because you will end up getting lectured, and I'm not in the mood for that right now, but seriously...if you have a problem with people who believe in God, something is seriously wrong with you.

For those of you who say we are not God...who are we to judge? Absolutely. The whole reason we judge is because God has already judged. It is GOD who told us of the sin of sodomy, and it is GOD who told us about the nation of Prophet Lot and their sin of homosexuality. God's Word. God's judgement. Not mine. Not anyone else's. God's. If God created them that way, then God would not have spoken against them, but He did, which means, their actions are actions that anger God. Once again, I know we're not God. This is God's judgement, and I will stand by the side that God stands by. (And no, this is not only in the Bible, but in pretty much every religious book, in pretty much every main religion).

[Catty1]

This relates to Christian parents, but I think it applies to any parents of faith who face what other parents do. Long - but please read it carefully.

http://www.hhproject.org/articles/christiangayteen

Others:
http://titration.blogspot.com/2007/0...ents-with.html

10 Tips for Christian Parents with Gay Children
http://www.newlife.com/article.asp?id=111

One point of view on the "biblical proof" that being gay is wrong, written by Pastor John, who worked as a Christian Pastor
http://allfaith.com/Grace/

[beeniesmom]

I really wanted to comment but I'm not sure if I would fall into disrepect.

[Daisy and Delilah]

I really wanted to comment but I'm not sure if I would fall into disrepect.

Same here, Carmen. I really don't know how to put it into the right words to make my point so I'll stay silent.

[IRescue452]

What about animals who exhibit same sex relationships (its been seen in many many species)? Why does your god make male penguin + male penguin for instance?

[ramanth]

Or those little critters that can mate with themselves.

[popcornbird]

Hey everyone.

I really don't see the point in going into a long detailed post and continuing the argument on this issue anymore. I sat and thought about it, and can clearly see that there are two reasons why we disagree on this issue.

#1. You believe gays were born that way. I honestly don't believe that at all. This is my main reasoning for not considering it discrimination. I do not believe, at all, that God made them that way.

#2. I believe in my religion as the truth from God, and anything God has said in the Quran is a fact to me, not an opinion. I believe that God made us, and as the One Who made us, He knows what is best for us. He loves us, and it is because He loves us that He has given us rules and guidelines to follow in life. If He did not love us, He would not have sent Prophets to us. He would not have sent Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, peace be upon them all, with His Word to mankind. He would not have made Himself known to us. But He did...and He wants us to do what is best for us. When you do not believe in what I do, you will not see it in the same way...BUT...

at the same time, I know quite a bit about Christianity, have Bibles at home, and know that many of the teachings in the Bible are the same as those in the Quran. I believe that when any of us claim to believe in something, especially in a religion, if we truly believe in our hearts that it is the true revelation from God, we should believe in everything it says, whether it pleases us or not. I am not a hypocrite in anything that I said. I am a Muslim, and I follow every rule in my religion to the best that I can. That includes no adultery, no fornication, no homosexuality, no gambling, no usury, no alcohol, no pork, etc. So...you really need to think twice before you use that hypocrite word where it doesn't fit. It makes me sad when I see Christians claiming to believe in Christianity, but do not think twice about what they're doing or supporting, regardless of how great a sin it is in their very own book. I can't help but feel that people who claim to be something, but do not follow their own teachings, really don't BELIEVE in what they say at all.

I really believe in my religion, and I have thousands of reasons for that, from which I will never leave regardless of what life experiences throw at me. I know that God knows better than we do. Practicing my faith has only brought me happiness and joy in my life, and I know that if I stick to God's teachings, God will reward me after I have left this world, regardless of what people in this world will say.

Regarding my children, I did not answer because the question doesnt make sense. How do you suppose a 23 year old woman who doesn't yet have any kids will know from today, what she would react to something that most likely will never happen 20-25 years from now? I don't know. I don't believe my kids will ever be gay, because I do not believe anyone is born like that, AND, us Muslims learn disipline in a way that most people never learn, from the very beginning. We have the ability to stay away from sex before marriage. We have the ability to pray, 5 times every day to God, at the prescribed times, regardless of whether that means leaving class or work or stopping at the side of the highway to do so. We have the ability to go without food, water, and intimacy with our spouses, from sunrise until sunset, for an entire month, every year, in the month of Ramadan. All for the sake of making God pleased with us. That takes serious determination, and all 1.2 billion of us do that every single year. Our life is very diciplined. We do what God commands, and stay away from what God has forbidden, and most Muslims who are true to their faith stick to the criteria. Our children do the same. I go to a mosque where thousands of people attend, and I sometimes go even everyday. I have never heard of anyone from the mosque turning gay, and I'm pretty sure no one has issues with their kids because of that. Its all about environment. You don't turn gay if you have an environment where everyone is doing things to please God. You will always have this feeling that God is watching you, Satan is whispering to you, and you need to defeat Satan by not answering to his call. He's our enemy, and He was the enemy of the first human beings (Adam and Eve), and we believe that we have to be aware of him all the time.

As for caring about what people do in their bedrooms...sometimes you have to care for the sake of society. If everyone followed proper ettiquettes when it comes to 'the bedroom deed', we would have less unwanted children for society to worry about, less STD's, and healthier families. And THAT is what I would love to have in our society. THAT is why I voted yes. I feel that regardless of our individual beliefs, we NEED a better environment with strong families to create a stong society for the well being of our children. We do not have strong moral fibers in America when it comes to family life. Divorce rate here is higher than any other country. Its a fact when we say there is a problem here in the strength of families and the moral structure. I am not as ignorant as you think...I have travelled the world, and have seen different societies, and have seen the difference. For example, from my time in some Eurpoean countries, I got the feeling that moral values are still a little better in America than they are in Europe. I might be wrong, but that is the impression that I got. People are more ignorant when they haven't seen society, but I have seen the society in the East, and grew up in the West from the time I was born. I live in California and mingle with the people here, both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. And surprisingly, a great deal of my Christian friends agree with me on my stance...so I know I'm not alone.

I also realize most of you have a good heart, and I know that from the many years I've visted pet talk. So I too agree to disagree, because I guarantee you that if you come to visit me when I'm an 80 year old lady with a cane and white hair, I will still be telling you homosexuality, as well as other big sins, is wrong.

[blue]

What about animals who exhibit same sex relationships (its been seen in many many species)? Why does your god make male penguin + male penguin for instance?

The animal kingdom dosent give them special treatment over single or non married couples, reguardless of hetro or homo relationship. Married couples should not get benifits or penalties that single or unmarried couples do not recieve.

[beeniesmom]

The animal kingdom dosent give them special treatment over single or non married couples, reguardless of hetro or homo relationship. Married couples should not get benifits or penalties that single or unmarried couples do not recieve.

Wow Blue, for once I agree with you!

[Catty1]

PCB: If you do some checking around at your place of worship, or on the net, you will find many good parents who raised wonderful children, some of whom face telling their parents that they are gay. Many know this from the time they are 3 or 5, much younger than puberty.

The reality is - people are gay, and it may be one of your own children. What will you do then?

This excerpt is from the first link I posted several posts ago.

"The story that stabbed me in the heart most profoundly was from a woman who described herself as a conservative Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin. She said her daughter had come out to her as a lesbian and that in one terrible moment she had told her daughter, "After you get fixed you can come home again."

After that the daughter refused to have anything to do with the mother. The mother said, "I should have picked up my purse and my keys and drove 550 miles to make her talk to me but I didn't.". A year later her daughter was found dead hanging in her own closet, a suicide.

Will you love your children no matter what?

I think the following is well worth copying here.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

[Daisy and Delilah]

Very good post, Candace.

I know many gay people. I can assure anybody that these people were born the way they are. I'm not speaking of those that wish to "experiment" just to see what it's like.

PCB, in all due respect for you and your beliefs. Which, I might add, I'm not trying to change. I really think you might be deceiving yourself to think you can have such complete control over your future children. I really don't believe this to be true. Unless you plan to try brainwashing techniques, you should maybe prepare yourself for what could happen.

I am really confused about some of your comments. You aren't judgemental but here in this thread, you are being judgemental. Some of your remarks are contradicting as well.

It's none of my business what people do behind closed doors or otherwise. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I get really concerned when people that love each other, no matter what their color, creed, or sexual preference, are excluded from living like the so called "normal" people live. They may be gross and disgusting to you, but, it's not your business to critique them, and they are human beings just like you are.

This perfect world that you have in your sights may turn out to dissapoint you.

I also voted "no" on our Florida amendment. I'm very sad that it was voted in. We need to band together in this country for the good of all of us. Not segregate people even more.

[-Pickle-]

I'm thrilled. This election has been wonderful. Obama won. California voters passed Prop 8. I officially lost 10 pounds this month. (LOL) So yes, I am thrilled...about many things at the same time. This also goes to say, the majority of California believes marriage is between man and woman, as does the entire nation (the fact that gay marriage is illegal in every state besides Massachusettes is clear proof of what the majority in America wants and believes in). No need to fight or scream or pass lawsuits. The people have spoken...TWICE...and it is clear what California believes in.

You just never cease do you.
Conneticut just legalised Gay marriage.
a quote from a very inspirational (bisexual) woman I know called Lofn.

In light of the current tragedy (when more than 1800 couples have the government end their marriages because of popular opinion concerning their genitals, I call it a damned tragedy), I want you to know that I thank you for your support in protecting marriage for all, and I urge you not to lose hope. We're still fighting. There is a petition going out to overturn the amendment, and according to a friend of mine, there are still votes to be counted, so we may still have a chance.

It may be discouraging, but don't let it crush you. Thank you for standing with us. We'll make it someday.

1800 people. Their union before God destroyed because of people like you that are close minded enough, to deny them the rights that they once had. Can you even have the grace to imagine how that feels to them?

For those of you who wish to leave California because of this...I guess Massachusetts is the only option, because the other states are only stronger against gay marriages than California.

-cough- Conneticut.

For those of you who commented on my kids (or future kids), I can only say that I intend to be a loving, caring, compassionate parent, who will teach her children right from wrong and wrong from right, who will try to instill in them good moral values, respect for others, and most importantly, I will try my best to raise them up as strong Believers in God Almighty.

Discrimination is wrong- thats what proposition 8 is. and you just voted yes. Way to be a hipocrite.

I intend to make it clear to my children that life is not a fantasy or storybook. In life, we do NOT always get everything we want. In life, we do not always get to have what we want, be with whom we want, or live in a situation that we want. It does not only apply to this issue. Life is not a fantasy. Reality is different from what we imagine, and for those of us who are young, we realize it quickly once we get married and start living as responsible adults in the real world, with all burdens of life on our shoulders. Everything in life is not possible, and everything in life is not acceptable.

Not everybody wants to get married. You say it like its something that has to happen otherwise the world will end because someone hasnt made a union. Now people want to get married, and you turn around and tell them oh no you cant do that its unnatural. So are spectacles, alot of modern medicines, plastic... yet we still use those day to day. for the procreation arguement, If everybody in the world was heterosexual and procreated, the population would explode to the point of resources stretching over their limit, no one would have enough and the whole world would be screwed.

Imagine if someone falls in love with another person, and loves that person to the point that he/she cannot imagine life without him/her. Now get this. The person who she considers the 'love of her life'...the person she dreams of, the person she wants to commit to is already married. Can she marry him? NO! Can she be with him? No. Can she live the rest of her life with him? No. Why? Because it isn't going to happen. Somethings are wrong, and we need to learn to accept that. Sometimes marrying the person you 'love' isn't the right choice. Sometimes people destroy their lives by marrying the person they fell in love with, and married JUST because they loved that person. Love, while a serious factor in marriage, is NOT the only bases of a union.

Sexuality & monogamy are different things Ma'am.

I am a person who is strongly against discrimination in any form.

you clearly arent though. your discriminating against couples and people based on whats in their pants or whos in their bed.

I cannot tolerate people who discriminate against people who are black because they are black, nor can I stand people who discriminate against whites because they are white. I cannot stand people who differentiate between the rich and poor. I am not an advocate of discrimination...nor is anyone else who voted yes to prop 8. I just don't believe ANYONE is supposed to marry the same sex. People who call themselves gay CAN marry. No one is preventing them from finding the love of their life in the opposite gender. If they have the right body parts (male or female), then they can marry people of the opposite sex, just like everyone else does. Like I have said before, and I know I will make some of you laugh by saying this, but you cannot make a computer work by plugging its plug into a plug. It just won't work. Try as hard as you might...that computer of your's will never turn on, will never function, will never help you in any way. Now get an outlet for the plug, and the computer will be functioning great in no time.

Good grief what on earth are you on! 'No one is stopping them from finding the love of their life in the opposite sex'.
Let me go back to basics for you.

Heterosexual: Romantically, Sexually, emotionally attracted to the opposite gender.
Homosexual: Romantically, Sexually, Emotionally attracted to the same Gender.
Bisexual: Romantically, Sexually, Emotionally attracted to both the same and opposite gender.

What you said is very Insulting. Homosexuals do not love the opposite gender in that way. Heterosexuals do not love the same gender in that way.

Men and women are like that. They are made to 'fit' into each other. That's the way our bodies are made, and that includes the bodies of people who call themselves gay. The action that men and women do together is impossible for people of the same sex to do together. This is why I say it is unnatural. It is. If it wasn't, then they would fit into each other perfectly, just like a man and a woman, but they don't...and a FACT: they never will. When a man and woman are married and have a child together, that child is a part of both of them. That child is made out of a part of his father, and a part of his mother. The development of a child is very, very beautiful. It is impossible for any 'gay couple' to have a child of their own, together, a child that is a part of both of them. Truly, it is impossible. If they get a sperm donor, the daddy is an unknown, and the other partner has nothing to do with the child. They can never have a child of their OWN.

Infertile couples can never have a child of their own either. Does that mean that they should not be allowed to marry? and how many children do you think there are in america and the world at whole that dont know who their father is?

There is a purpose of two genders. There is a purpose of a mother and a father. Kids need both, and while some children in certain situations don't get to live with both, the ideal situation is that a child has both mom and dad. Moms and dads are not exactly the same. Now don't even try to tell me we're in the 21st century, and there's no difference in a mom and a dad in this day and age. There is. Find me one father who can successfully nurse his newborn, and then tell me you found one that's the same. They are not the same. Without insemenation, there can be no baby. Without a womb, there can be no baby. Love makes babies..and babies are born in families, into marriages. Besides, right now, in the 21st century, gay marriage is illegal in almost every country in the world. This includes our own. That should tell you something. Most human beings that exist in the 21st century, believe and KNOW that marriage is only between a man and a woman. Its that simple.

I was raised the majority without my father. I'm fine. Im not the only one either.
No, sex makes babies. You seem to be under the impression that without marriage none of this can happen, which either demonstrates that you didnt pay attention in sex education class or are under some kind of ignorance that most people would die for. Did you know america has some of the highest teenage pregnancies in the world?
Im not even going to go into the divorce rate.

I don't deny that people can have feelings for each other, nor do I judge people for having feelings of affection for other human beings. I don't, and never had a problem with people of the same gender holding hands, or giving each other little kisses (NOTE: I do not mean romantic/french kissing here). In fact, for me, it is completely normal to see guys, friends holding hands and walking. That isn't a 'gay' thing. That is just affection for someone you care about. The problem I have is when people ACT on their feelings in a lustful manner. The problem is when it becomes sexual. Sexual behavior is not always acceptable. Homosexuality comes in that category. So does incest...hence, my reasoning for comparing the two together. Both are immoral types of sexual behavior. Fight with me all you will....the majority of the world agrees with me on this. Your arguments won't make a difference.

homosexual.

Before I finish off typing and go to attend the soup cooking on my stove, I'd like to address Pickle's 'we have a creationist amongst us' comment. Oh wow...like everyone on PT is a non-believer. I have been a member of PT for many, many years (my estimate is 6 years but I'm not sure), and know many religious people here, as well as people who are not that religious, but most definitely believe in God and the fact that He Created us. As far as I know, most, or a very large number of people on PT believe in God, and rightly so. I cannot imagine that things have changed here to the extent that everyone has changed their ways and beliefs. We did not all fall out of the sky. I'm not even going to get into that debate right now because you will end up getting lectured, and I'm not in the mood for that right now, but seriously...if you have a problem with people who believe in God, something is seriously wrong with you.

I have no problem with people that believe in God but the creationist arguement is flawed. You say things like Incest is wrong, but If every human came from adam and eve, then their children must have procreated, and so on. So if that was true, you're related to everyone. You cant marry because your related to everyone. Gay or Straight.

For those of you who say we are not God...who are we to judge? Absolutely. The whole reason we judge is because God has already judged. It is GOD who told us of the sin of sodomy, and it is GOD who told us about the nation of Prophet Lot and their sin of homosexuality. God's Word. God's judgement. Not mine. Not anyone else's. God's. If God created them that way, then God would not have spoken against them, but He did, which means, their actions are actions that anger God. Once again, I know we're not God. This is God's judgement, and I will stand by the side that God stands by. (And no, this is not only in the Bible, but in pretty much every religious book, in pretty much every main religion).

Sodomy was a sin in the 1500s. incase you hadnt noticed, its 2008. The bible preaches that god made and loves everyone. Besides the fact that there is no proof that God even exists, the bible is full of incorrect information. Do you eat pork or shellfish? Leviticus says that is an abomination to you.
The whole reason we judge is because we agree or disagree. I read the bible in my christian primary school, and pondered it until last year. I've come to the conclusion, that the holy books contradict themselves and are not to be listened to in my life. My opinion is, that instead of looking to the ceiling for answers I'll go find them myself.
If there is a God (and to be honest, I doubt it) I, and the thousands of other LGBT people will answer for ourselves regarding who we love. I dont need a book to explain my actions- I just need a book to write them in for future reference.




Oh and for your and like minded peoples information-
Obama disagrees with proposition 8, calling it discriminatory.