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[IRescue452]

What about animals who exhibit same sex relationships (its been seen in many many species)? Why does your god make male penguin + male penguin for instance?

[ramanth]

Or those little critters that can mate with themselves.

[popcornbird]

Hey everyone.

I really don't see the point in going into a long detailed post and continuing the argument on this issue anymore. I sat and thought about it, and can clearly see that there are two reasons why we disagree on this issue.

#1. You believe gays were born that way. I honestly don't believe that at all. This is my main reasoning for not considering it discrimination. I do not believe, at all, that God made them that way.

#2. I believe in my religion as the truth from God, and anything God has said in the Quran is a fact to me, not an opinion. I believe that God made us, and as the One Who made us, He knows what is best for us. He loves us, and it is because He loves us that He has given us rules and guidelines to follow in life. If He did not love us, He would not have sent Prophets to us. He would not have sent Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, peace be upon them all, with His Word to mankind. He would not have made Himself known to us. But He did...and He wants us to do what is best for us. When you do not believe in what I do, you will not see it in the same way...BUT...

at the same time, I know quite a bit about Christianity, have Bibles at home, and know that many of the teachings in the Bible are the same as those in the Quran. I believe that when any of us claim to believe in something, especially in a religion, if we truly believe in our hearts that it is the true revelation from God, we should believe in everything it says, whether it pleases us or not. I am not a hypocrite in anything that I said. I am a Muslim, and I follow every rule in my religion to the best that I can. That includes no adultery, no fornication, no homosexuality, no gambling, no usury, no alcohol, no pork, etc. So...you really need to think twice before you use that hypocrite word where it doesn't fit. It makes me sad when I see Christians claiming to believe in Christianity, but do not think twice about what they're doing or supporting, regardless of how great a sin it is in their very own book. I can't help but feel that people who claim to be something, but do not follow their own teachings, really don't BELIEVE in what they say at all.

I really believe in my religion, and I have thousands of reasons for that, from which I will never leave regardless of what life experiences throw at me. I know that God knows better than we do. Practicing my faith has only brought me happiness and joy in my life, and I know that if I stick to God's teachings, God will reward me after I have left this world, regardless of what people in this world will say.

Regarding my children, I did not answer because the question doesnt make sense. How do you suppose a 23 year old woman who doesn't yet have any kids will know from today, what she would react to something that most likely will never happen 20-25 years from now? I don't know. I don't believe my kids will ever be gay, because I do not believe anyone is born like that, AND, us Muslims learn disipline in a way that most people never learn, from the very beginning. We have the ability to stay away from sex before marriage. We have the ability to pray, 5 times every day to God, at the prescribed times, regardless of whether that means leaving class or work or stopping at the side of the highway to do so. We have the ability to go without food, water, and intimacy with our spouses, from sunrise until sunset, for an entire month, every year, in the month of Ramadan. All for the sake of making God pleased with us. That takes serious determination, and all 1.2 billion of us do that every single year. Our life is very diciplined. We do what God commands, and stay away from what God has forbidden, and most Muslims who are true to their faith stick to the criteria. Our children do the same. I go to a mosque where thousands of people attend, and I sometimes go even everyday. I have never heard of anyone from the mosque turning gay, and I'm pretty sure no one has issues with their kids because of that. Its all about environment. You don't turn gay if you have an environment where everyone is doing things to please God. You will always have this feeling that God is watching you, Satan is whispering to you, and you need to defeat Satan by not answering to his call. He's our enemy, and He was the enemy of the first human beings (Adam and Eve), and we believe that we have to be aware of him all the time.

As for caring about what people do in their bedrooms...sometimes you have to care for the sake of society. If everyone followed proper ettiquettes when it comes to 'the bedroom deed', we would have less unwanted children for society to worry about, less STD's, and healthier families. And THAT is what I would love to have in our society. THAT is why I voted yes. I feel that regardless of our individual beliefs, we NEED a better environment with strong families to create a stong society for the well being of our children. We do not have strong moral fibers in America when it comes to family life. Divorce rate here is higher than any other country. Its a fact when we say there is a problem here in the strength of families and the moral structure. I am not as ignorant as you think...I have travelled the world, and have seen different societies, and have seen the difference. For example, from my time in some Eurpoean countries, I got the feeling that moral values are still a little better in America than they are in Europe. I might be wrong, but that is the impression that I got. People are more ignorant when they haven't seen society, but I have seen the society in the East, and grew up in the West from the time I was born. I live in California and mingle with the people here, both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. And surprisingly, a great deal of my Christian friends agree with me on my stance...so I know I'm not alone.

I also realize most of you have a good heart, and I know that from the many years I've visted pet talk. So I too agree to disagree, because I guarantee you that if you come to visit me when I'm an 80 year old lady with a cane and white hair, I will still be telling you homosexuality, as well as other big sins, is wrong.

[Catty1]

PCB - as time goes along, if you have friends who are gay, or meet people who are, ask them about it being a choice.

You may have friends who are - but if they know your feelings on the subject, they may not say anything at all about it.

All I am suggesting is - educate yourself.

[JenBKR]

It makes me sad when I see Christians claiming to believe in Christianity, but do not think twice about what they're doing or supporting, regardless of how great a sin it is in their very own book. I can't help but feel that people who claim to be something, but do not follow their own teachings, really don't BELIEVE in what they say at all.

I wasn't going to respond, but I feel that I have to address this. Christians understand that the first testament is God's law, and the second is Man's law. This means that Jesus changed everything. His main point was to love everyone - as LH said, love the sinner, hate the sin. That is one of my favorite expressions, and one I try to remind myself of daily. We are ALL sinners. Every sin is equal, except not believing that Jesus is the Lord and Savior. Judging others is one of those sins. I respect your opinion, but supporting others and loving them for who they are does not make me less of a Christian. I AM following my own teachings by not judging and loving others.

[Cataholic]

I echo JenBKR's post. I love the preachiness of posts that espouse what their God says and doesn't say, and how it means someone else's belief must be wrong. Just makes no sense at all to me. And, to throw numbers into it, and talk in terms of the majority, all countries, all humans, etc., should advance an argument no further than the atrocities that went along with WWII. Many people thought Hitler was 'right', too.

I am thankful that I live in a society that is slowly changing its ways in terms of discrimination. I find it interesting that on a pet site, even in the DH, that the focus of this thread was on homosexuality rather than the horror the animals face at slaughter- both big issues on the California ballot. To think that some humans care more about what goes on in someone's bedroom than the horror of the slaughter/treatment of innocent animals is baffling.

If that is worshiping your God, no thanks. I will stick with my God.

[caseysmom]

I echo JenBKR's post. I love the preachiness of posts that espouse what their God says and doesn't say, and how it means someone else's belief must be wrong. Just makes no sense at all to me. And, to throw numbers into it, and talk in terms of the majority, all countries, all humans, etc., should advance an argument no further than the atrocities that went along with WWII. Many people thought Hitler was 'right', too.

I am thankful that I live in a society that is slowly changing its ways in terms of discrimination. I find it interesting that on a pet site, even in the DH, that the focus of this thread was on homosexuality rather than the horror the animals face at slaughter- both big issues on the California ballot. To think that some humans care more about what goes on in someone's bedroom than the horror of the slaughter/treatment of innocent animals is baffling.

If that is worshiping your God, no thanks. I will stick with my God.

I couldn't agree with you more and thank god prop 2 won by a large majority. But you would cringe if you drove around in my area a few days before the election it was scary and backward.

[blue]

What about animals who exhibit same sex relationships (its been seen in many many species)? Why does your god make male penguin + male penguin for instance?

The animal kingdom dosent give them special treatment over single or non married couples, reguardless of hetro or homo relationship. Married couples should not get benifits or penalties that single or unmarried couples do not recieve.

[beeniesmom]

The animal kingdom dosent give them special treatment over single or non married couples, reguardless of hetro or homo relationship. Married couples should not get benifits or penalties that single or unmarried couples do not recieve.

Wow Blue, for once I agree with you!

[Catty1]

PCB: If you do some checking around at your place of worship, or on the net, you will find many good parents who raised wonderful children, some of whom face telling their parents that they are gay. Many know this from the time they are 3 or 5, much younger than puberty.

The reality is - people are gay, and it may be one of your own children. What will you do then?

This excerpt is from the first link I posted several posts ago.

"The story that stabbed me in the heart most profoundly was from a woman who described herself as a conservative Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin. She said her daughter had come out to her as a lesbian and that in one terrible moment she had told her daughter, "After you get fixed you can come home again."

After that the daughter refused to have anything to do with the mother. The mother said, "I should have picked up my purse and my keys and drove 550 miles to make her talk to me but I didn't.". A year later her daughter was found dead hanging in her own closet, a suicide.

Will you love your children no matter what?

I think the following is well worth copying here.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

[Daisy and Delilah]

Very good post, Candace.

I know many gay people. I can assure anybody that these people were born the way they are. I'm not speaking of those that wish to "experiment" just to see what it's like.

PCB, in all due respect for you and your beliefs. Which, I might add, I'm not trying to change. I really think you might be deceiving yourself to think you can have such complete control over your future children. I really don't believe this to be true. Unless you plan to try brainwashing techniques, you should maybe prepare yourself for what could happen.

I am really confused about some of your comments. You aren't judgemental but here in this thread, you are being judgemental. Some of your remarks are contradicting as well.

It's none of my business what people do behind closed doors or otherwise. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I get really concerned when people that love each other, no matter what their color, creed, or sexual preference, are excluded from living like the so called "normal" people live. They may be gross and disgusting to you, but, it's not your business to critique them, and they are human beings just like you are.

This perfect world that you have in your sights may turn out to dissapoint you.

I also voted "no" on our Florida amendment. I'm very sad that it was voted in. We need to band together in this country for the good of all of us. Not segregate people even more.

[caseysmom]

Very good post, Candace.

I know many gay people. I can assure anybody that these people were born the way they are. I'm not speaking of those that wish to "experiment" just to see what it's like.

PCB, in all due respect for you and your beliefs. Which, I might add, I'm not trying to change. I really think you might be deceiving yourself to think you can have such complete control over your future children. I really don't believe this to be true. Unless you plan to try brainwashing techniques, you should maybe prepare yourself for what could happen.

I am really confused about some of your comments. You aren't judgemental but here in this thread, you are being judgemental. Some of your remarks are contradicting as well.

It's none of my business what people do behind closed doors or otherwise. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I get really concerned when people that love each other, no matter what their color, creed, or sexual preference, are excluded from living like the so called "normal" people live. They may be gross and disgusting to you, but, it's not your business to critique them, and they are human beings just like you are.

This perfect world that you have in your sights may turn out to dissapoint you.

I also voted "no" on our Florida amendment. I'm very sad that it was voted in. We need to band together in this country for the good of all of us. Not segregate people even more.

Wonderfully said, my thoughts exactly.

[beeniesmom]

PCB, From your post I am understanding that you obviously didn't get to choose your husband. I am sorry about that and the fact that you think you can't be with the one you really love. Personally, I think that's a lie. I just hope you don't choose your kids' husband or wife as your parents did for you. Also, you say you don't descriminate.... Can you spell Hypocrite?"

[popcornbird]

PCB, From your post I am understanding that you obviously didn't get to choose your husband. I am sorry about that and the fact that you think you can't be with the one you really love. Personally, I think that's a lie. I just hope you don't choose your kids' husband or wife as your parents did for you. Also, you say you don't descriminate.... Can you spell Hypocrite?"

I'm really busy today, and do not have time to respond to the other posts right now, but I had to respond to this post...because this post is the joke of the century!!! GOOD LORD!!!

I chose my husband, love my husband with all my heart, would give my life for my husband, and much, much more. Everyone who knows me knows that, and everyone who knows my husband knows that he adores me the same. I truly can't get over how ridiculous AND infuriating this post of your's was, and can't for the life of me understand what you derived it from. Sheesh.

I am furious that you dare speak about my husband and parents in the way that you did. God has blessed me with the best husband, the best parents, and tremendous love in my life, and neither my parents, nor my husband has ever forced me into anything I didn't want, and I am confident that they never will.

The bottom line is the majority of California, the majority of America, and the majority of the world agree with me. Gay marriages are illegal in most of the country, and in most of the world, and ALL of the propositions regarding this issue this elections have passed by the vote of the people. Even IF you believe in the gay lifestyle, there IS NOTHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. They have 'rights' in the state. No one is seperating them or commanding them to live away from each other. Why do they want marriage? Is this all about money? Inheritance and insurance benefits? I cannot see any other reason why they want to call it marriage so badly because there is no other special benefit that calling it marriage will give them.

As for me, I do not believe anyone is born gay and I never will. I do believe some people are born as intersexuals with both sexual organs or neither. Anyone who is born with a condition has no control over the way they are. No one has control over whether they have white skin or black, whether they will be tall or short, whether they will have blue eyes or brown. Anyone who is 'born' in a certain way carries no blame for how they are born. I do not believe anyone is born gay, and most people don't. There is no scientific evidence that there is a gay gene. Even if there were, the population of gays would die out, because gays cannot reproduce, and thus cannot pass the genes on to the next generation. We're all born the same, pure, innocent, beautiful, male or female. When you go to visit a new mom at the hospital, there are two balloon options. "IT'S A BOY!!!" or "IT'S A GIRL!!!" There isn't any, "IT'S A GAY!!!"

Kids don't 'turn out' to be gay. I've known several girls in high school who claimed that they just realized they're gay. Fast forward a few years, they are all now with MALE partners. So much for being gay. They're just confused. If they were truly born gay and had to be with a gay partner, then none of that would've changed. We all have control over where we put our hands, where we put our feet, where we turn our gaze to, where we give a listening ear, and where we put our sexual organs. The sexual actions we do are a choice we make. No one MAKES us do it. It IS a choice, nothing more.

I do not believe I will have ultimate control over my kids. No one does. I will have the duty to nurture and guide them. When kids grow up, they do what they want, and parents hope that they will stick to the guidance they gave them. I hope for the same.

Funny how you guys turn to personal offenses instead of addressing the issue at hand. I thought Americans respect majority vote. Isn't that what democracy is all about?

[Kfamr]

I truly can't get over how ridiculous AND infuriating this post of your's was, and can't for the life of me understand what you derived it from.

Now you know how I feel when reading some of the things you come up with. EESH.