Unitarian church shootings

[sparks19]

I think you need to apologize-You are incorrect.

There is a light blue Mercury Tracer parked in the driveway at this moment. It was driven privately for years.

LOL you're so special Richard

[Randi]

It is about EVERY human's right to defend themSELVES from tryanny no matter what form it takes. Should this right be removed, we are no longer truly free.

I pray daily that I will never need to use my firearms to protect myself and/or my family. Or worse, protect myself from tyranny of government. But if necessary I can and I WILL.

It’s frightening to read your views, Puckstop, and I hope not too many USA citizens feel that way. Where is your limit? What would it take for you to use your gun? Someone threatening you/your family with a gun? A knife? Nasty words? Can you picture it... everyone walking around defending themself from all the others with guns - what a world!! You'd soon get rid of each other.

....because criminals by definition do not follow the law.

So much more reason not to let everyone have a gun!

Haven't anyone learned from what happened the last few years?

Many, if not most, of us require a car. That same thing can't be said of carrying a gun.

Right on!!

[Ginger's Mom]

As a side note, I would like to thank you for keeping this civil. Most of the time when I debate this topic, it gets ugly and I get called names. LOL

I have to agree, I think that was one of the most interesting and civil debates I have seen on this board. Well done, both of you.

[RICHARD]

It’s frightening to read your views, Puckstop, and I hope not too many USA citizens feel that way. Where is your limit? What would it take for you to use your gun? Someone else threatening you/your family with a gun? A knife? Words? Can you picture it... everyone walking around defending themself from the others with guns - what a world!!

I have to take this into a different direction. This past Tuesday there was an earthquake here in California. As our governor said, "we dodged a bullet" -
They say that the BIG EARTHQUAKE will happen within the next 30 years.
Should that come to pass, most of the people here will be left on their own.

During the L.A. riots there were many Korean shop keepers who defended their stores/properties from the throngs of looters and rioters. The police, in most cases, stood by and watched. Why? They had to contain the rioting and provide security for the firefighters.

When the Big EQ hits here many people will by looking for a free things. I can imagine that the criminals will be out and about looking for things to steal from stores and citizens.

I have my supplies that might keep me alive- I think I may be inclined to protect my interests in a situation like that. That is a sad statement when you think about it. I may have to resort to using force to stay alive.

Just a reminder of the world we live in.

[Puckstop31]

It’s frightening to read your views, Puckstop, and I hope not too many USA citizens feel that way. Where is your limit? What would it take for you to use your gun? Someone threatening you/your family with a gun? A knife? Nasty words? Can you picture it... everyone walking around defending themself from all the others with guns - what a world!! You'd soon get rid of each other.

This arguement is made, each and every time a state passes law allow Concealed Carry. And each and every time it is debunked. Why? Because law abiding, gun owning Americans are not the people the rest of the world THINKS we are. (Or should I say TOLD we are by the media?)

Indeed I can imagine a world where everybody has the ability to defend themselves. What a civil and polite world it would be.

As for what it would take for me to use a weapon in self defence... Well, here in my state the law is black and white. I need to feel my life is in danger. Of course that fear would probably need to stand up in court. In my home, as long as the intruder is not a immediate threat (i.e pointing a weapon at me) he gets a warning. If he does not retreat, which would be his CHOICE, I will make my choice...

So much more reason not to let everyone have a gun!

Haven't anyone learned from what happened the last few years?

EVERYone can't get a gun. There is a background check required. The Virgina Tech case is an example of a flaw in the background check system. Further, that case is an example of how perhaps if a single law abiding gun owner had been allowed to have his weapon on campus, a tragedy could have been avoided or mitigated.

"Gun free zones...." HA! Why do you think the most crime occurs in these places? Criminals prefer unarmed victims.



Granted, there is obviously a great deal of difference between your culture and mine. Which is super. Really. You live in yours and I will live in mine.

[Edwina's Secretary]

In SoCal a police officer - who I assume was trained in firearm safety - did something rather unsafe. His three year old son in the back seat of his pickup grabbed his service revolver and shot dad in the back. Dad is paralyzed and is -- of course -- suing all sorts of people, inlcuding a client of mine. This will probably be the last straw for my client and they will go out of business. Being trained in firearm safety does not guarantee anything. But then someone will have to pay for the son's therapy.

If the intent of the Founding Fathers is considered infallible, wouldn't that mean the slavery of black people, the disenfranchisement of women, just to name a few of the changes of the last 200 years?

The Constitution is a living document -- or at least so I hope!

[Puckstop31]

In SoCal a police officer - who I assume was trained in firearm safety - did something rather unsafe. His three year old son in the back seat of his pickup grabbed his service revolver and shot dad in the back. Dad is paralyzed and is -- of course -- suing all sorts of people, inlcuding a client of mine. This will probably be the last straw for my client and they will go out of business. Being trained in firearm safety does not guarantee anything. But then someone will have to pay for the son's therapy.

If the intent of the Founding Fathers is considered infallible, wouldn't that mean the slavery of black people, the disenfranchisement of women, just to name a few of the changes of the last 200 years?

The Constitution is a living document -- or at least so I hope!

This is a shame. However, this is dad's fault, not the gun. Especially considering he was a Police Officer.

We can be free or we can be "safer". I choose free. The things you mentioned being changed allowed for more freedom. Banning firearms will REMOVE freedom. Without a way to resist tyranny, we are nothing but chattle.

Besides, a Consitutional Amendment to ban something? A dangerous precedent, eh? Just as I would oppose an amendment to repeal the 2nd Amendment, I would also oppose an amendment to 'define' marriage or to ban abortion.

Our Constitution should set us free, not limit us.

[Randi]

They say that the BIG EARTHQUAKE will happen within the next 30 years.

Oh yes, and I remember hearing that 30 years ago as well, and I do believe it will happen some day - although he climate change may ruin to earth before that.

When the Big EQ hits here many people will by looking for a free things. I can imagine that the criminals will be out and about looking for things to steal from stores and citizens.

No doubt about it, they will! But I don't think that pointing a gun at them is the right way to tackle it. It would be better to educate people and make an effort to minimize the gap between rich and poor, because poverty is often the cause for people getting violent. When they have come to a point where they have nothing to lose ....

.... law abiding, gun owning Americans are not the people the rest of the world THINKS we are. (Or should I say TOLD we are by the media?)

While I’m aware that media can twist and bend facts, you have to admit that a lot of shootings have happened over the last few years in USA - and escalating in other countries too. So many innocent people/children have lost their lives. It might have been prevented if it wasn’t normal to own a gun. A gun can shoot many people, and although knives can too, it would take a lot longer. I’m not in favor of anyone carrying knives either, by the way!

EVERYone can't get a gun. There is a background check required.

OK I believe that a background check is required, but it’s not worth much is it, since the agressive maniacs manage to get hold of guns anyway, one way or the other.

Being trained in firearm safety does not guarantee anything.

Accidents such as this happen too, it is very sad!

We can be free or we can be "safer".

I would like to believe we can both free and safe! It is possible in some countries where guns are banned, you know!

[Puckstop31]

OK I believe that a background check is required, but it’s not worth much is it, since the agressive maniacs manage to get hold of guns anyway, one way or the other.

EXACTLY. Gun laws only effect the law abiding.

I would like to believe we can both free and safe! It is possible in some countries where guns are banned, you know!

Define 'free'. Hows your tax rate?

[cassiesmom]

I must admit I don't know what the Unitarian Universalist church beliefs are. But I heard on the news that there was a Presbyterian church right next to the one where the shootings took place. The reporter said it was unclear why the shooter specifically went into the UU church. The gun was brought into the church in a guitar case.

Gun violence bothers me for a lot of reasons. I'm a rehab nurse and I've cared for people with head injuries caused by bullets (shot by themselves or others). Trauma care is much better, so more people are surviving and having to deal with the life consequences of brain injury. More than 20 Chicago high school students were killed by shootings during the 2007-08 school year. You should not have to be afraid of being shot at when you go to church. I don't know what the answer is - more police and the Illinois National Guard on the streets? We might be heading toward a police state situation if that were done. More opportunities for youth programs, education and vocational training to get kids off of the streets and out of gangs? I think that would be great. However, our governor has reduced state funding for such programs and Mayor Daley has deferred releasing his proposed budget for the city of Chicago, so I think public monies for these types of services are going to be less available in the future. More drug enforcement? I don't think it is a problem with an easy or quick answer.

[RICHARD]

In SoCal a police officer - who I assume was trained in firearm safety - did something rather unsafe. His three year old son in the back seat of his pickup grabbed his service revolver and shot dad in the back.

What did he do that was unsafe?

Have a kid?
Buy a crew cab truck?
Load his gun?


HE WAS STUPID, not unsafe. He violated the law-of course the poh poh has a different set of laws-and he won't get charged for it. I cannot transport any gun unless the bullets and gun are in separate places inside the vehicle and the bullets are locked up.


Why wasn't this jerk prosecuted? Here's a clue! How's about endangering a child? Carrying a piece locked and loaded?

Any other piece of crap parent would be charged and held in jail. But the bleeding heart AHs say something like, "He's suffered enough, leave him alone".
So, instead of applying the law for EVERYONE, we let a few people slide, they come back and people get sued because they had little or nothing to do with some stupid "cop" that didn't have half a brain.

Randi,

Here in Lost Angeles the dropout rate for high schools was something like 30 percent. 3 out of 10 kids do not graduate, period. We cannot educate kids in basic knowledge to face the world, so how can we educate them to respect the world?

This always brings me back to a Don Henley song that talks about a man with a briefcase being able to steal more money than a man with a gun.

[smokey the elder]

(Reconsiders deleting and jumps into the fray*

[soapbox]I believe handguns are banned in the UK. In terms of the US, I think we should maybe try to better enforce the laws that are actually on the books. People who drink and drive (trust me, this is going somewhere!) often face stiff penalties, jail time, and license suspension or even revocation. Yet, how many times do you hear of someone "with a suspended license" in a hit and run who kills someone? Is the answer to ban all cars?

People who misuse firearms face jail time and possibly even the death penalty. People also use firearms for legitimate purposes (putting food on the table, for sport, etc.) But, as Ron White so succinctly puts it, "You can't fix stupid." My correlary: "You can't legislate out stupidity." Or hate, or other dirtbaggish human behavior. Our law enforcement system is imperfect at best, so the laws on the books, whether for revoking driving privileges ore shooting privileges, if not enforced, often aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

In a long-winded way I guess I stand on the side of NOT universally banning firearms. My personal preference would be that anyone who wishes to own one would have to be licensed much as one is licensed to drive a car, and this includes passing both a written test and a practical test.[/soapbox]

[RICHARD]

(Reconsiders deleting and jumps into the fray*

[soapbox]I believe handguns are banned in the UK. In terms of the US, I think we should maybe try to better enforce the laws that are actually on the books. People who drink and drive (trust me, this is going somewhere!) often face stiff penalties, jail time, and license suspension or even revocation. Yet, how many times do you hear of someone "with a suspended license" in a hit and run who kills someone? Is the answer to ban all cars?

[/soapbox]

OUT here in Hollyweird, an actor Shia Laboef, La Beef?(Who names these idiots?) wrecked while driving under the influence. He rolled his truck twice but will not be charged because someone else caused the accident!

----------

Japan is another 'gunless' country.

But that didn't keep the wacko that killed and injured 21 people with a car and a knife from doing what he did... What about the Greyhound killer? This gun lops off a fellow passenger's head while tripping thru Canada. The stabbing epidemic in England was another stunner.

------

You are way correct about the laws being as worthless as the paper they are printed on. In L.A. we are in the process of figuring our a papparazzi law to protect the stars from the thundering hordes of photographers-probably to protect them from the law suit when they kill someone trying to get away.

We also have a law keeping any fast food businesses from being built in a low income area of the city because people cannot make good food choices. We have another law banning fats in food.


We also have an 'anti assault gun' law on the books. Why? I don't know. That didn't help out the cops in the North Hollywood shootout. Matter of fact-that was the only time that the cops were ever challenged since that law passed-and that was because of their ammo, the guns and the magazines-and before that it was 1974 with Patty Hearst and her band of brothers.

The one psycho will always take a few guns and go on a rampage. Or knifes or cars or what about the two instances of the heavy machinery that was used in Israel. You can kill anyone with anything.

We just haven't learned to kill each other with kindness

------------

OUtlaw shovels.
http://www.boston.com/news/odd/artic...her_mans_nose/

[Grace]

I swear, it matters not where you live.

1. CHANDIGARH, India (Reuters) - At least 145 people, mostly women and children, were crushed to death under the feet of thousands of pilgrims in a stampede at a temple in northern India on Sunday, police said.

2. FREDERICK, Md. (AP) — Bruce E. Ivins, the late microbiologist suspected in the 2001 anthrax attacks, told his psychotherapist after learning he was about to be indicted that "he was going to go out in a blaze of glory, that he was going to take everybody out with him," she said.


In one case, the crowd gets out of control; in the other Mr. Ivins mind gets out of control. In one, it is the feet that kill; in the other it was anthrax.

No guns, no knives.

[smokey the elder]

Could whoever wrote me a message to my email please send me a PM and I'll give them a better email address? When I open it I get gibberish characters and can't reply to it.

Thanks!