Sex abuse in church

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Originally Posted by Cataholic

I believe that research has shown, time and again, that rape is NOT a sexual issue.

Molestation is not a sexual issue...it is a deviant mindset.

Being gay does not make someone a pedophile. There is simply no relation to one's sexual preference and molestation. Gays like men or women....pedophiles like CHILDREN.

Allowing or disallowing priests to marry doesn't alter the deviant mindset of molestation. Molestation is NOT caused by some pent up sexual frustration.

Wacked is wacked...whether you are married or not.

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Cataholic makes a lot of sense in this post. I can understand some people thinking that letting priests marry might make a difference and in a small minority it might.
But many pedophiles, homosexulas are married and it doesn't change their mindset. There are as many sexual deviants in married couples that in all walks of life.
I'm sure many of us know of these odd couples who will spend hours watching porno , including porno of little children...are these not sexual deviants?
If marriage would be the answer to this problem then you wouldn't see these half *ss deviant couples having to turn to porno to satisfy themselves. When police raid their homes and come out with box after box of porn with little kids posing I'd say they are simply deviants regardless of the life they chose. Being married is another way for them to hide , just like hiding behind priesthood.
Your neighbour could be one of them and you would never suspect it from the facade he displays for the neighbourhood. Heck, some of these sickos even use their own kids and make them pose for videos...sick!!

It is true that at this late time, marriage will not fix the problem within the church, but it is a beginning. The original reason the church came up with the no marriage law was to remove the possibility that his offspring would have any claim on the church. Celibacy today is their way of insuring status quo. The Power of the Papacy is dependent now on keeping their Priest beholden to the powers in the Vatican. If there was a witch hunt today to root out all of the deviant Priest the church would collapse. It may collapse in spite of all they can do anyway. The payout for hush money is approaching 1.5 billion and with the coffers shrinking it may just be a matter of time. The Pope is in big trouble of his own making and it will become increasingly hard for him to talk out of both side of his mouth.

I do not agree with Cataholic of simplistic assessment of gays verse pedophile since there are gays that are also Pedophiles. It becomes a thing of opportunity when he is insured by THE POWERS that there is no penalty for getting caught. It is true that marriage does not insure that there will not be deviate behavior because we see in our general public married gays and pedophiles. The problem facing the RCC is they have inbred the priesthood that has become increasingly deviate in nature. Celibacy is not natural and no matter how hard the church has tried, it has not worked. A thousand years of failure should have taught them something. Vatican 2 was their chance to get it right but the current Pope as "Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" saw to it that the cloak of secrecy returned to hide the guilty. Now as Pope Benedict the 16th he has a long rocky road ahead.

No, I don't agree with Cataholics post either. Too general, when a multitude of variables exist.

As I posted previously, priests must be held accountable for their crimes under the Common Law, and be punished as anyone else in the community would be for the same crimes....and add to that person or persons who have given sanctuary to the perpetrators, who use a religious establishment as a safe haven for them.
Marriage I believe would help the situation, as Bill said, it's a start.......and if it helps, then it has to be worth a shot.

I am aware that their are pedophiles, gays, pornographers, molesters, rapists etc etc in the community, married or not, nobody is disputing that here. But how would you feel if there were a special law to protect these people ??? I don't know Asiel if you have children, Cataholic has a child. I have children. Most people here on this forum have children.
Think about that.....!!!!!
A law....a very special law to protect those who violate children.
How do you think the community would react to that ????
I'm sure the community would have something to say to the lawmakers....do you think ????
But here we are accused of verbally attacking the Catholic church !!!!
Double standards ???? I believe so.

Of course I have children. If I didn't I wouldn't take this matter so seriously. I also count the hundreds of children who have passed through my doors to be part of mine. And yes, we do need a law that will bring justice for the crimes on our children but it never seems to get anywhere no matter how hard the general public tries. We've been fighting these crimes for ages and nothing seems to have come of it, the priests , bishops etc are still protected behind closed doors. The abused are the ones paying the piper.

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Originally Posted by Asiel

Of course I have children. If I didn't I wouldn't take this matter so seriously. I also count the hundreds of children who have passed through my doors to be part of mine. And yes, we do need a law that will bring justice for the crimes on our children but it never seems to get anywhere no matter how hard the general public tries. We've been fighting these crimes for ages and nothing seems to have come of it, the priests , bishops etc are still protected behind closed doors. The abused are the ones paying the piper.

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Yes, that is true. But if public opinion becomes strong enough, perhaps something can be done about it.

One can only keep hoping I guess. Maybe someday in the distant future it will happen. I don't see anything changing real fast around here yet.
I'm actually waiting to see what the Pope's next move will be....

Maybe he should step down, it's the honest thing to do.

Does anybody think that the problem would be solved by the Pope
stepping down? Do you think child abuse happens only in the Catholic
Church? Or how about freeing priests from vows of celibacy will help end
child abuse.

Here's an interesting article to consider on these questions.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/235885

I agree with just about every thing that this writer said but there was one glaring problem, Joseph Ratzinger. Before becoming Pope it was his policies that made the problems worst since vatican 2. The cloak of Secrecy made it appear that things were better since 2002, when all the while payouts for silence are at an all time high. The very man that denounced the deviate behavior as Pope was the same man that created the cloak of secrecy that bred deviate behavior since Vatican 2.

It is true that there is a global problem with sex abuse in all segments of society. In the general public Homosexually is about 10% or 1 in 10 people you know may be homosexual. In the Priesthood they can't agree on an actual % but it is between 25% to 75 % of the clergy. Marriage may not be the solution
but if marriage was agreed on by the Vatican(hold your Breath) then their power would be diminished and over time the problems could be rooted out of the RCC. Civil law could be used to prosecute rather than hiding behind rehab and transfers. The POPE has to much power PERIOD.

The pope should step down because he hid a crime, sex abuse against children, he should be sent to jail, just as any other person would if they hid a crime like this.
The law should apply to all regardless of status, money, power. Sex abuse against children needs to be stopped and if that means sending the pope to jail as the ringleader for hiding this crime then maybe that is what it will take to get the ball rolling and keep our children safe.
This is NOT about the church!!!! This is ABOUT children who were sexually abused and have a right to see their rapists jailed so no other child has to suffer.
I understand people have great loyalty to the church. But what about the children, are they not more inmportant then grown men in robes weeding out judgement right and left while sexually abusing that very child.
How can anyone put the church above a child?

Still with the church and the pope?

Somebody run the numbers of the abused kids in the USA alone. Does the church or state and fed foster care abuse more kids? Obama is the head Fed, he should report to jail for all of the kids abused in the foster child system.

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Originally Posted by Asiel

I'm actually waiting to see what the Pope's next move will be....

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Well that's gonna be real interesting when it happens.
I think he's going to have some explaining to do :eek:

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Originally Posted by kokopup

I agree with just about every thing that this writer said but there was one glaring problem, Joseph Ratzinger. Before becoming Pope it was his policies that made the problems worst since vatican 2. The cloak of Secrecy made it appear that things were better since 2002, when all the while payouts for silence are at an all time high. The very man that denounced the deviate behavior as Pope was the same man that created the cloak of secrecy that bred deviate behavior since Vatican 2.

It is true that there is a global problem with sex abuse in all segments of society. In the general public Homosexually is about 10% or 1 in 10 people you know may be homosexual. In the Priesthood they can't agree on an actual % but it is between 25% to 75 % of the clergy. Marriage may not be the solution
but if marriage was agreed on by the Vatican(hold your Breath) then their power would be diminished and over time the problems could be rooted out of the RCC. Civil law could be used to prosecute rather than hiding behind rehab and transfers. The POPE has to much power PERIOD.

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Yes, I do agree with that mate. Let them marry and it'll only be a matter of time before things balance out. At the moment, it's too lopsided.

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Originally Posted by Marigold2

How can anyone put the church above a child?

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It's seems Ratzinger has.

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Originally Posted by blue

Still with the church and the pope?

Somebody run the numbers of the abused kids in the USA alone. Does the church or state and fed foster care abuse more kids? Obama is the head Fed, he should report to jail for all of the kids abused in the foster child system.

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No Blue....you got it all wrong.
What we are saying is that ALL people who abuse kids should be answerable.
And at the moment the priests within the Catholic church are not answerable in the same way as everyone else is.
If someone sexually abuses a child, they should be given a penalty, regardless of who they are or where they are.....and that penalty should be the same for everyone who commits that crime.

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

No Blue....you got it all wrong.
What we are saying is that ALL people who abuse kids should be answerable.
And at the moment the priests within the Catholic church are not answerable in the same way as everyone else is.
If someone sexually abuses a child, they should be given a penalty, regardless of who they are or where they are.....and that penalty should be the same for everyone who commits that crime.

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What do I have wrong? I have stated, anybody who abuses a child, forfeits any rights they have, including the right to live.

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Originally Posted by blue

What do I have wrong? I have stated, anybody who abuses a child, forfeits any rights they have, including the right to live.

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Yeah, but you made a point a while ago that everyone here was attacking or demonising the church. So why should the church be treated differently ??
If the Pope is guilty of hiding the true facts, then he should also face the consequences.

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Yeah, but you made a point a while ago that everyone here was attacking or demonising the church. So why should the church be treated differently ??
If the Pope is guilty of hiding the true facts, then he should also face the consequences.

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The media, not everybody on PT, is attacking the Church and the Pope.

Why are the Church and the Pope being targeted instead of our foster care system? Same reason teachers who abuse children get a pass while innocent priests get cavity searched just for going to mass.

If the Pope is guilty he forfeits his life, hopefully in eternity as well.

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Originally Posted by blue

Why are the Church and the Pope being targeted instead of our foster care system?

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Because the church is headed by the Pope, who chooses to hide the pedophiles within their ranks.

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Because the church is headed by the Pope, who chooses to hide the pedophiles within their ranks.

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Obama is hiding teachers who target children in our schools. If you need proof...

He named NAMBLA approved Arne Duncan as Education Czar.

Google NAMBLA if you really want to be pissed off.

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Originally Posted by blue

Obama is hiding teachers who target children in our schools. If you need proof...

He named NAMBLA approved Arne Duncan as Education Czar.

Google NAMBLA if you really want to be pissed off.

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Nambla is a dead horse.......
"Since 1995, public criticism and law enforcement infiltration have heavily impaired the organization. Its national headquarters now consists of little more than a private mail box service in San Francisco, and they rarely respond to inquiries. Some reports state that the group no longer has regular national meetings, and that as of the late 1990s to avoid local police infiltration, the organization discouraged the formation of local chapters"

Public criticism toward NAMBLA ?? Because the people don't want pedohiles.
Law Enforcement Infiltration into NAMBLA ?? Because what they propose is against the law.
Catholic Church criticism ?? Because the people don't want pedophiles.
Law Enforcement in the Catholic church ?? None !!!!

And so Blue should this also then be the fate of the priets and the pope?

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Originally Posted by blue

What do I have wrong? I have stated, anybody who abuses a child, forfeits any rights they have, including the right to live.

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Originally Posted by Marigold2

And so Blue should this also then be the fate of the priets and the pope?

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If they are indeed guilty, yes.

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Nambla is a dead horse.......

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The dead horse is alive and well with Arne Duncan as education czar.

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"Since 1995, public criticism and law enforcement infiltration have heavily impaired the organization. Its national headquarters now consists of little more than a private mail box service in San Francisco, and they rarely respond to inquiries. Some reports state that the group no longer has regular national meetings, and that as of the late 1990s to avoid local police infiltration, the organization discouraged the formation of local chapters"

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And yet NAMBLA chapters are still active.

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Public criticism toward NAMBLA ?? Because the people don't want pedohiles.
Law Enforcement Infiltration into NAMBLA ?? Because what they propose is against the law.
Catholic Church criticism ?? Because the people don't want pedophiles.
Law Enforcement in the Catholic church ?? None !!!!

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You really think there isnt law enforcement within the Church?

BLUE

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The dead horse is alive and well with Arne Duncan as education czar.

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Blue you need to research your material a little better. The only thing for sure
is that Fox and the Washington Inquirer smear campaign have been proven wrong and there is no association between Duncan or Jennings and the Nambla. Jennings founded the Gay and Lesbian Independent School Teachers Education Network but has openly denounced NAMBLA as has Duncan.

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Originally Posted by kokopup

BLUE


Blue you need to research your material a little better. The only thing for sure
is that Fox and the Washington Inquirer smear campaign have been proven wrong and there is no association between Duncan or Jennings and the Nambla. Jennings founded the Gay and Lesbian Independent School Teachers Education Network but has openly denounced NAMBLA as has Duncan.

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You defend one group of pedofiles because Fox news may have attacked them. Is the Washington Inquirer a real newspaper or is it like the Onion?

I know Duncan isnt officially NAMBLA but that doesnt mean he hasnt condoned their ideals.

Has the Church done wrong? Yes it has. Does every member of the Church deserve to be smeared as a molester? No they dont.

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Originally Posted by blue

Does every member of the Church deserve to be smeared as a molester?

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Blue.....nobody is of the opinion that every member of the church is a molester. But the ones that are, must be brought to task.
Nobody here is attacking the Catholic church, or attacking Catholics.
We are just questioning why, in this day and age, why it's the way it is.

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Originally Posted by blue

You really think there isnt law enforcement within the Church?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Blue.....nobody is of the opinion that every member of the church is a molester. But the ones that are, must be brought to task.
Nobody here is attacking the Catholic church, or attacking Catholics.
We are just questioning why, in this day and age, why it's the way it is.

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The main stream news in the states wants us to believe that the Pope has raped babies.

If we are asking why, I want to know why the Church is the target and not the foster care system?

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Yes.

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I got a tinfoil hat answer but dont have the patience to type it out.

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Originally Posted by blue

The main stream news in the states wants us to believe that the Pope has raped babies.
If we are asking why, I want to know why the Church is the target and not the foster care system?

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The Pope's job before he was elected to Pope was to protect the church from embarassment and liability. Admitting guilt was never an option.
So he swept the whole lot under the rug.
I don't know about you Blue....but I'm pretty sure I would never allow my children to be taught in a Catholic school.
As far as punishment goes, the guilty were relocated and probably given a slap on the hand. Who knows where these guys ended up....at the school down the road from me, at the school near you. How do you know where they have been relocated to ??? Is the Pope going to tell you ???? No, because he doesn't want you to know, and he doesn't want the world to know.
"If we are asking why, I want to know why the Church is the target and not the foster care system?"
Why are you people so paranoid about this ???? It doesn't matter who the target is !!!! The intent is to rid the community of these molesters, and at the moment, it's Catholic policy to hide these people.

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Originally Posted by blue

The main stream news in the states wants us to believe that the Pope has raped babies.

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Good grief! I can see why you liken the crimes of the Pope to Obama being responsible for every criminal in the USA. The media do what they usually do, whip up a frenzy. It makes money. And it's exciting. ;)

Blue, am I right in assuming that the word from the Vatican to the dioceses is cooperate with all investigations?

That leaves me in two minds. I believe that answers the point about law enforcement in the church - of course there is, in all of the nations the faith spans. Yet, the fact the Pope has to proclaim what he has begs the question, would they evade the questioning behind the hood of pontifical privacy, were he not to tell them otherwise?

Not intended as a smear, indeed, I would imagine most religious authorities would look to their pontifex above all else. I just wonder what your opinion is on this?

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Originally Posted by blue

I got a tinfoil hat answer but dont have the patience to type it out.

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Why ????

Miss Z

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Not intended as a smear, indeed, I would imagine most religious authorities would look to their pontifex above all else. I just wonder what your opinion is on this?

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This seems to be addressed to Blue, however I thought I would give my thoughts on your question. First you are using a Term to describe a church leader that has been distorted in recent years. "Pontifex" as it applies to the church would apply only to the Pope of the RCC , since they are the one church organization that has a figure of this statue and power. "Pontifex" has been used by several radical groups such as "White Supremacy" groups here in the US. The RCC Leadership is the only orginization that is really under question by the original post. True there are people in places of power that maybe shouldn't be there. We can not take the position that as long as you have "this" or "that" happening you should not be bad mouthing the church. Discussing the lack of leadership in the church was the whole point of the thread. We can't take the position that the church is off limits as long as Obama is making bad appointments. These are all typical smoke screens that are used by some to high jack a thread. This is so typical.:confused:

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Originally Posted by kokopup

Miss Z


This seems to be addressed to Blue, however I thought I would give my thoughts on your question. First you are using a Term to describe a church leader that has been distorted in recent years. "Pontifex" as it applies to the church would apply only to the Pope of the RCC , since they are the one church organization that has a figure of this statue and power. "Pontifex" has been used by several radical groups such as "White Supremacy" groups here in the US. The RCC Leadership is the only orginization that is really under question by the original post. True there are people in places of power that maybe shouldn't be there. We can not take the position that as long as you have "this" or "that" happening you should not be bad mouthing the church. Discussing the lack of leadership in the church was the whole point of the thread. We can't take the position that the church is off limits as long as Obama is making bad appointments. These are all typical smoke screens that are used by some to high jack a thread. This is so typical.:confused:

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Thanks kokopup.

Eek, I don't know that much about supremacy sects over there, to be honest. I had no idea 'pontifex' in that context gave such an image! I use it in the purely Latin sense; the chieftain. Will be more careful using that next time. :p

I agree that the church isn't off limits, but what I was previously getting at, and what I believe Blue was saying, is that such 'corruption' is not exclusive to Catholicism. No matter who or how they worship, there's people who will abuse the system by using it as an excuse when they need to get out of trouble.

I'm an atheist, so the pros and cons and Chinese whispers about each religious division mean nothing to me. I only believe in respect for faiths, so I think picking out supposed flaws in the teaching systems and underlying beliefs of Catholicism only added to the 'let's all point the finger' scenario.

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Originally Posted by kokopup

We can't take the position that the church is off limits as long as Obama is making bad appointments. These are all typical smoke screens that are used by some to high jack a thread. This is so typical.:confused:

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Yup, gotta agree with you there mate.
From what I've read on this thread, there are some who agree to disagree. :p