No surprise to hear that.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
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No surprise to hear that.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
I can see Marigolds point. The thing is every different race has different customs. My sister in law's sister who is a nun went to Africa thinking she was going to teach the women about birth control. Sister got very frustrated & came back to the states shaking her head. A man becomes a man when he produces off spring before the age of 15 or else he is not a man.
We are dealing with a historical raid on a Jewish Kosher plant where they allowed illegals to come in & work & got caught. It is a big mess. They don't have any health insurance & our local hospital has had to suck up losses incurred treating the illegals & legals. Luckily there are people who do care food, & housing has been donated. Some have found new jobs & homes with the help of translaters from our local college. There are some illegals back in the little town caring for their children & have to wear ankle braclets. There are people working to help them get through this not knowing what their fate will be? A person gets torn between what is right & what isn't. All I know the world is over populated & I don't think God planned on it being this way even though he/she said go forth & multiply.
I went to bed thinking about this thread.....
I have to say something about the Mexican community. I know it well.
MY dad was an I!!E@G@! -Apparently there is an effort afoot to prevent the word illegal from being used in courts all across the country- and he made it a priority that his kids get a good life here in the Good Old United States. There is a very disturbing trend at identifying all illegals as "mexicans". More on that later on.
The new adjectives for people who cross the border are, Undocumented, Misplaced, Forced out.......and so on! LOL, the next legal term for a murderer will be a "Denier of Life".:rolleyes::confused:
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The phrase "drop a kid" is more a slam against the kid, than it is against the mother or a race/culture. The first person who suggested that it may smack of racism needs to look first at where the phrase came from.
Somewhere-I do believe I heard it start somewhere in the San Diego media-someone tossed out the term anchor baby. Is that a slam against sailors?
Heavy metal objects used to hold boats/ships in place? Drop a baby? Not too enamoured of that term, but these days the vernacular tends to make things/circumstances nice, neat little packages that will get the news reader under the three-minute-per-story-time limit.
I actually have more of a problem with the tone of the post - As you may all know, Dolly Parton modeled her look after the streetwalkers/prostitutes of her town. What does that say about her?
The post was intended to shock and to make people really upset. It really doesn't bother me. I understand the irritation in the comments-I have to laugh at the Indian doctor/Calcutta reference-that's probably not true-most of the young Indian docs were born here and went to school in the U.S.
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I am all for immigration, green cards, visas and all the other good stuff that brings productivity and prosperity to our country. But you have to start at the top and parsing some of the blame where it belongs.
The government-elected officials and laws- have been very lax about the rules covering immigration. Some who want to curb the problem are "racists" others who want to enact laws protecting the illegality of what is happening are the people who are looking for the 'destruction' of what we have now in the country.
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I don't want to go on because it's all stuff we have hashed out before-but one thing that makes me laugh.
Si Se Puede is a term that the Mexican population coined a few years back in an effort to win back the government from the AH people in charge.
It's an incomplete thought-Yes It Can-It should be Si Se Puede Hacer- Yes It Can Be Done. So right there I shake my head at the 'value' of the phrase.
It evolves into a rallying cry for our election, and again it's an incomplete thought, Yes We Can-Can what? Now people will say it's incomplete because it opens up the possibility of being able to do anything, but incomplete ideas like that are just that, incomplete ideas.
Si Se Puede? Not anytime soon, the same people who looked to wrestle control back to the people in Mexico are the ones dying everyday in Tijuana, in the wars between the drug cartels. The buzz on the spanish language channels was to support the BO run for office because the Dems were looking at amnesty for everyone in some way.
The interviews from the Illegal Man on the Street were telling, Maybe the new presidente los va dar derechos!!!! The illegals were looking at the new president to give them rights!
Which brings us to the idea of granting rights to people who are here illegally.
They should be granted HUMAN RIGHTS, but extending them the privileges that we have earned, bled and payed for seems to defeat some of the ideas we have about living in the U.S.
This is a tough subject to broach and there are arguements on both sides that are to be listened to, but I tend to look at the statements made more as a slam against people in general. The pinpointing of a certain group-Mexicans- show a certain degree of ignorance regarding the total picture. I don't take it personally and think it just reflects the ideas the media puts out about people.
Anyone that speaks spanish is Mexican, so, if all illegals speak spanish?:confused:
I guess that could be a racist statement, but I have always thought that some of the more racist statements are ground in fact. Wetback, Beaner, Taco Bender-the term "Wada" is the spanish equivalent of the N-word. The Hispanic population use it freely, without the drama attached to the N-word. We tend to shrug our shoulders and get back to work. We cannot argue with the terms because they are based in who and what we are. I am a Beaner, but not a wetback-That is the way the Border Patrol would I.D. the people who had just made it across the river to the U.S., I am a taco bender-it's just words.
I am not offended, If you want to hurt me, tell me that as a citizen I cannot partake in what I contribute to. That will make me mad-and maybe the next time you bite into a taco or burrito, or eat rice and beans-think about the nice people who brought you the idea.
Otherwise, we are taking back California, Texas, Nevada and Colorado, Keep Utah and Florida. We don't do well in hurricanes or snow.
Marigold whether there is truth in what you say or not, could you please use a little more tact in this thread, i did not start this thread so it could end up like this, now it is just becoming tacky and offensive to people and not informative at all,there are ways of saying things,without causing people to become upset.
Her point and how she made it are very different things.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
BS! Working in construction, Ive come across many Mexicans that do quite well here.Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
"Yes We Can-Can what?"
Just for the record, this is what Obama believes "Yes We Can"
"But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been
anything false about hope. For when we have faced down impossible
odds; when we've been told that we're not ready, or that we shouldn't
try, or that we can't, generations of Americans have responded with a
simple creed that sums up the spirit of a people.
Yes we can.
It was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the
destiny of a nation.
Yes we can.
It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail
toward freedom through the darkest of nights.
Yes we can.
It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and
pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness.
Yes we can.
It was the call of workers who organized; women who reached for the
ballot; a President who chose the moon as our new frontier; and a King who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the Promised Land.
Yes we can to justice and equality. Yes we can to opportunity and
prosperity. Yes we can heal this nation. Yes we can repair this
world. Yes we can.
And so tomorrow, as we take this campaign South and West; as we learn
that the struggles of the textile worker in Spartanburg are not so
different than the plight of the dishwasher in Las Vegas; that the
hopes of the little girl who goes to a crumbling school in Dillon are
the same as the dreams of the boy who learns on the streets of LA; we
will remember that there is something happening in America; that we
are not as divided as our politics suggests; that we are one people;
we are one nation; and together, we will begin the next great chapter
in America's story with three words that will ring from coast to
coast; from sea to shining sea - Yes. We. Can"
I also like a quote from earlier in the speach where he said "We can disagree without being disagreeable." I think that's far better than agreeing to disagree. :)
Is this why his daughters go to private schools?Quote:
that the
hopes of the little girl who goes to a crumbling school in Dillon are
the same as the dreams of the boy who learns on the streets of LA;
Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
"Yes we can" is a pile of warm steaming puckey that only BTB can make happen, because he is a cartoon. What BO believes in, and what he can make happen are two different things.
"Yes we can" is a media/modern phenomenon, the humanity that is thought to have utter the phrase was more worried about being caught and subject to the laws of the day-"Yes we can" was more "Hope we aren't caught".
I want everyone to be able to afford their lifestyles and have enough income to live without worry. Who is the bigger AH? A stupid Am-Mex or the president elect? When he makes things 'happen' PM me, I will publically apologize to you.
All in all, it's just a speech. There has not been one major U.S. Politician that has made any difference in race relations in the past 50 years.
Dude.
YOU have seen the guys that bust arse at the 'site'; They are the 'sign language' workers who shake their heads "yes" and do what is pantomined to them-I remember what a college basketball coach said about athletes that had Hispanic roots. Paraphrased here-"I wish they had more height, They have heart, but aren't tall enough."
BO's riding on the coat tails of any and all movements for equality or human rights is nothing but political horseshiat. It's the same ride the Jackson and Sharpton have taken for the last 25 years. If they were humble and honest about gaining equality for the 'downtrodden', we would not be having this conversation. To pin the hopes on one person to end years of hate and social/race oppression is too funny to even comment on.
I have a better chance of pulling flying monkeys out of my urethra than the incoming president has of making things all 'sugar and spice' after 150 years of stupidity...
What I believe will fill volumes of fiction. I guess I can be president now?
From 1972.Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
http://www.geocities.com/duffy7836/CesarChavezMP.jpg
Some facts to support those horrible racist remarks.,
I am also the granddaughter of immigrants.
I am the daughter of immigrants.
I was an immigrant for over two years.
I bore a child in another land.
My entire family is from another country.
My mother was in concentration camp. I am not a racist, these are the facts below. Hope it's not too confusing.
You think the war in Iraq is costing us too much?Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
Boy, am I confused. I have been hammered with the propaganda that it is the Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting us. I now find that to be RIDICULOUS. Read on...
I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of all the following facts.
1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.
Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77
2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://wwwcis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
Verify at: http://transcripts.CNN.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.HTML
5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
Verify at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and
marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.
Verify at: Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'
Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
Verify at: http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States .'
Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
Are we THAT stupid?
Marigold, Did you read the full CNN transcript? Lets look at option 10...did you find the information in the transcript? It did not seem out of context to you? Perhaps you are having trouble grasping the quote that this was taken from?
Oh and about 5 of your links are invalid...hope thats not too complicated to comprehend. You really did your homework. Might want to actually read what you cut and paste next time.
Oh pooh, yes 10 is a mixup. Tried to do my best but it's late and some of these links are old research. I am not perfect but I do have some good and accurate facts here. You might not like what you read or what it says about humans as a whole but it is not racist and it's not bias. It's just the ugly truth. Wish it wasn't so.
Its a bunch of B.S. and if you don't realize that I pity you. FIVE of your links are INVALID. The CNN quotes are out of context....give me one thing that is left?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marigold2
8 out of the 14 links and points seem to still be valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
My issue with the comments made by Marigold are simple. The immigration stats cited in the various articles cover illegal immigration, not Mexican illegal immigration.
There are Chinese, Mexican, Salvadoran, Columbian, Kenyan, etc.. illegal immigrants.
It is NOT a problem which lies solely with one country, and to paint it as such is disingenuous at best.
Honestly can you point me to one? Everything I have found is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
Then how could you honestly say only 1 was taken out of context?Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
Please point out how the remaining 8 are false.
Every quote I have looked at from on the CNN site it wrong or out of context. It is being quoted out of context or taken out of context, just saying give me one that we can debate...that you think it valid, because I cannot find one, I am being honest and not trying to be combative at all. Marigold's posts have always been far from factual IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
Edited to add, at the time of my original post I found one out of context and 5 bad links. Since then I tried to find one valid and have had no luck. Didn't want to make this a huge homework project on my part!
Way to make your case.Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
So take my last sentence after I did quite a bit of research and take it out of context, you are really not an intellectual debater....where is Lady's Human when I need a mature person to debate. At least he sticks to the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
Way to deflect the whole thing so you have to do NO work and show me NO valid points, very mature.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
crickets...chirp chirp like I thought...out for the night.
You did not back up anything you said, so again you did not make your case against Marigolds cut and paste.Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
Point 1, is not a CNN transcript, where is FAIR wrong or taken out of context?
Point 2, if you copied and pasted the link you would find it is not invalid. Now tell me how that was taken out of context.
Point 3, is the same link as Point 2. Im sure you can show how it was taken out of context a second time.
Since Im sure you are going to point out where CNN was taken out of context for us Im going to skip those and concede the PDF downloads as well.
Im too beat to copy and paste the sources for Point 13 to check its validity.
Point 14 is the only link that is not valid.
ETA:
Sorry I was looking at the links you said were invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
Since only 1 link returned an error, how did you come up with the claim that 5 are invalid?
I can wait till next evening for your response. I may have ADD but I have learned patience.Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
Boy you guys really get upset about this. I looked up a ton of links on immigration because all of my family is from Europe. English isn't even my first language.
Perhaps everyone could look up their own links and stop name calling. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: The only reason I posted this is because of all the name calling being thrown at me. I only mentioned the Mexicans because it is easier for them to sneek over here then any other people and because there are more of them then any other. If any one can show a couple or even one postive outcome of them coming here please post that. This is after all a global world and what effects us effects people in every land on this earth. No man is an island.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
You want a valid point? Try this one.
How much do these illegal immigrants PAY in taxes? Why is that not cited? When they work state and local taxes are deducted from their paychecks. FICA - social security they will never be able to collect - is dedcuted from their paychecks. When they shop they pay sales tax.
For any of this to have any validity or logic -- that must be included. How much do they add to the economy -- value from the strawberries they pick and the toilets they clean?
This is one-sided. Let's hear the other half of the equation.
Oh and Marigold.....when you say something as ugly and offensive as "drop a kid" about anyone -- what do you expect?
can we please get back to the original topic thank you.
Please Marigold can you choose your words more wisely, there are ways of saying things and getting your point across without offending other Pters, thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
Point 1, Marigolds states the 11 to 22 billion is for illegal immigrants. The article states this is due to all immigration, once again an incorrect quote.
point 2 and 3, the costs she states are cost overall, not just illegal immigration, did you read the article further to read the clarification, if its too hard I will copy and paste it:
A Complex Fiscal Picture
Welfare use. Our findings show that many of the preconceived notions about the fiscal impact of illegal households turn out to be inaccurate. In terms of welfare use, receipt of cash assistance programs tends to be very low, while Medicaid use, though significant, is still less than for other households. Only use of food assistance programs is significantly higher than that of the rest of the population. Also, contrary to the perceptions that illegal aliens don't pay payroll taxes, we estimate that more than half of illegals work "on the books." On average, illegal households pay more than $4,200 a year in all forms of federal taxes. Unfortunately, they impose costs of $6,950 per household.
Social Security and Medicare. Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in these two programs. However, they create a net deficit of $17.4 billion in the rest of the budget, for a total net loss of $10.4 billion. Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive. Of course, if the Social Security totalization agreement with Mexico signed in June goes into effect, allowing illegals to collect Social Security, these calculations would change.
Carole, I am really sorry about this thread but all of Marigold's instances are just wrong.
Carol, sorry for my part in this highjack.
And Casseysmom, Marigold didnt type anything, that was a cut and paste. You could have played nice by pointing out how the links were taken out of context, but you chose not to for reasons we can only speculate.
Marigold did not do this research herself. She cut and pasted the whole thing, the 14 things off of the internet. This whole thing is all over the internet by folks trying to spread mistruths. She should research these things before spreading them.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
I don't play nice with bigots, I stand up to them.
You would have done a better job of making your stand by showwing the lack of context the 14 points tried to make, you chose not to, but instead targetted Marigold and then myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
Illegal immigration is another issue why I couldnt vote for either canidate.
ES's argument only holds water for illegals who have illegally obtained SSCs and not those that work under the table.
No Blue. You are wrong. Even those who "work under the table" (I suspect you mean "get paid under the table" but whatever...) pay sales tax. Also there is the value to the economy of the work performed -- either under the table or on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
Wrong. Not every city and state in the US has a sales tax. I do most of my shopping outside of the cities tax zone or in Anchorage to pay as little sales tax as posible. The value they give to an economy also detracts from it by lowwering wages for the type work they perform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
By working under the table they arent coverred by workmans comp insurance or any of the safeties legal workers are coverred by.
hey guys have you finished arguing the point yet? I guess someone is right and someone is wrong, or are you all right, gosh i don't know i am totally confused, and would like to move on if possible thanks.
I am just guessing here....but many of these folks live in places other Anchorage. And not everyone has your opportunity to avoid paying taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
I am quite well aware of the lack of protection when working off the books. What does that have to do with the discussion?
Sorry Carole.
I am as guilty as anyone for hijacking my own thread, changing the subject from time to time, so that is fine,and hey if you want to thrash it out,i guess it is up to you guys,if we can get back on topic be good though,not holding my breath lol.:)actually i am totally lost on the subject now,ignorance is bliss sometimes. lol
Anchorage and Alaska are not the only city and state that does not have an income tax so quit pretending they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
A majority of the people who work off the books are here illegally, unless you can show me otherwise.
*EDIT* If you keep reading, I put my foot in my mouth on this post. Alaskan residents do not pay a state sales or income tax, though some cities and boroughs have sales taxes there are no Alaskan Income or Sales taxes.
ES was talking about Sales Taxes and I posted income taxes, and for that I am deaply sorry.
Blue...I was talking SALES TAX. That is different from income tax. I wouldn't dream of pretending that there aren't more places without income tax. Florida I believe does not have one...maybe Nevada?Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
In the little bit of Marigold's quotes I read...it said something like half of illegals work off the books. But that is different from what you just said. Do I know what portion of those who work off the books that is? No, but what does that mean?
But I am done. You are confusing me. Sales tax/income tax...worker comp/working under the table/hafl of this is not half of that/pretending.
I can't keep what you are saying straight. Plus my turkey is almost done.