Re Best Friends- it is my dream, when J gets old enough, to schedule a 'working vacation' at BF! I :love: them. I need to make a donation to keep my magazine coming...thanks for the reminder.
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Re Best Friends- it is my dream, when J gets old enough, to schedule a 'working vacation' at BF! I :love: them. I need to make a donation to keep my magazine coming...thanks for the reminder.
The taking of any life is wrong, to me. Having said that, there is a difference between someone drinking and getting behind the wheels of a car and accidently taking the life of another (it was a manslaughter charge, not a murder charge) then MV, time and again, with 'malice aforethought, torturing these dogs. A big difference. This is not about the value of a human life over an animals life (though, again, to me, they are both precious and not mine to take). This is about a conscious, repeated, thought out act, time and again. Big, big difference in the intent, the mindset, of the defendant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alysser
To give it an example that doesn't involve a loss of any life. To me, it it MUCH worse of a crime when someone spray paints a neighbor's car then it is when someone damages another's car in a car accident. Both cause property damage, but the crime can be treated differently in the system, all because of the mind set of the defendant.
There are former criminals in all walks of life, and I have always believed in paying one's debt to society, and then moving on. I know first hand the difficulties of returning to a 'normal' life. I have a client that was a convicted felon- gun possession in the course of a robbery. He served time- 6 years. He finally found someone that would give him a second chance. He is a stand up guy. I would trust him in my home, around my child, with my money (if I had any..LOL). I don't put him and MV in the same universe. Some crimes are not so much about the act, as they are about the person. MV is, IMO, in that category.
With the risk of sounding like I don't have an original thought of my own, and I fall into the "me too/I agree" population - I have to say "me too/I agree". :p There's a world of difference between accidental and intentional. Sometimes we look only at the crime itself, and not what is behind it or associated with it. Let the punishment fit the crime, but only after ALL aspects of it have been reviewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataholic
IMO - Vick got off with a mere slap on the wrist. If he hadn't gotten caught, he'd still be at it. :mad:
Cataholic, I agree and totally realize that one was by accident and one was intentional. I was merely pointing out that other players have done similar things without such a huge public outcry whenever their name is mentioned. I guess Vick was more popular, therefore people made a bigger deal about it? That, I do not know. To me, what both players did is "unforgivable" but that isn't to say they can't redeem their lives.
And with your last paragraph, I agree 100%. Is MV a bigger scumbag than Stallworth? In most ways, yes. I don't think I would ever hold a human life higher than and animal life, but that's just me. Who are we to do that? But both actions (dog fighting & drinking) were BOTH preventable and I am sure both knew what they were doing at the time. Although, I KNOW Stallworth didn't mean to hurt, yet alone kill anyone. AND that is the difference between the crimes, as you stated, and again I totally agree. I guess I was just reinforcing my belief that he deserves a second chance, but IMO, not in the NFL.
And at the risk of being hated for saying "I agree" again, I am also totally 100% with you on the importance of any life. I feel the exact same way about that.
Pomtzu, he definitely got off way easier than anybody would've liked I'm sure. Unfortunately most people who abuse animals do. Animal Cruelty laws are not very solid, IMO :(
I think the fate of all animal abusers should be turned over to all the folks of Pet Talk. They would give more than just a slap on the wrist!!! :eek: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Alysser
BTW - the question you had about MU - granddaughter says it exceeds academically, but the sports teams suck big time! :p The campus is great but the food is miserable. You can have your own car on campus with a permit - for a price of course. You either need a car to get around, or have some friends that do. She volunteers at the humane society in town, and a cab costs her $9 if she can't catch a ride with a friend. The good outweighs the bad - it sounds like a place that you would probably like. ;)
I always have a problem expressing what I feel about lives- human or animal. It isn't that I place a higher value on animals than I do humans, but, that I place value on ALL living creatures. I never see it as a "which has more value" but that ALL have value. Like if you had two children...you wouldn't choose to save one over the other, in the case of a fire, would you? You would save both. You wouldn't say, "these are both humans, I must save both" you would say, "these lives are worth dying for, and I will save both". There is a difference.
Pom- you can jump on my bandwagon any ole time you like. :love::love:
Anyone that watched the game knows that MV is lucky to be alive.
He got his arse handed to him by the Vikes D-line.
I was surprised that he was still walking after the hip injury.
@Richard- I don't watch football. So, I didn't see the game. Are you saying that MV was treated more harshly because of the dog fighting stuff, or that it just was a very physical game cause that is the way it went?
It appeared that the game was very physical. I was actually surprised.. it was far more (for lack of a better word) violent than any football game I've seen in a long time. I don't know if that had to do with Vick, or just a change in the game in general, which is a whole 'nother thread.
I was talking to my dad about it while we were watching the game. On the one hand, I would hate to think that we lived in a society where someone who committed a crime, went to jail and served a sentance, and got back out could never get a job again doing their chosen profession. I would say the same thing about someone who was a delivery driver, sales person, etc. So in that respect, I think it's only natural that at some point, Vick was going to play professional football again. On the other hand, I don't like him, I don't believe that he's sorry, and I do believe that if he hadn't been caught he'd still be doing it and not feeling an ounce of remorse. I just don't think that means that he shouldn't be allowed to have a job, his job. It's touchy because it's a questions of morals for me, and that's not "fair" because it involves all kinds of personal judgements.
I don't know if he was treated any more harshly because of the dog fighting history, but.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataholic
At the end of the year with so many playoff scenarios? There are teams wanting to improve on their standings for pride, some wanting to make the playoffs and some trying to play spoiler..The Vikes sucked this year and they were trying to keep Philly from getting any momentum going and to win the game.
MV is a mobile quarterback and he took many hits on Tues. He was really harrassed and some of the D-line players really teed off on him. I am sure that there are dog lovers in the NFL but they would never admit that they were trying to hurt him...to tell you the truth, when you play. you really don't care about stuff like that.
You want to knock the shiat out of MV, but when you aim that high, you do stupid things and open the door for penalties, ejection and maybe a League fine.
-----------
That all said?
I am going to say something that will irritate some of you....
MV is a chump and a moron. I don't like him and think that he should be used to train attack/guard dogs. (I wish I had been the judge on that trial, I would have made him do that for about 6 months, and clean kennels for a year....)
MV is beyond talented as a football player.
Had he kept his nose clean he would be among the most revered and loved QBs in the game.
HE did pay a price for his a-holery, He lost playing time, money and went to jail.
This guy can play the game and is beyond what a coach would want from a player. I shook my head when I saw the games he played in-I never went out of my way to watch, but I would tune in to see him get creamed.
I guess that I am trying to say is that when you see someone THAT talented and gifted do stupid things like fight and kill dogs? the suspicion is that they have some kind of flaw in their character...no, no suspicion, it's a fact.
That is the saddest and most irritating thing about someone with that kind of gift......they have the ability to be tops in their field, but not the brains to execute a 'law abiding' living.
The more I see him play, I am even more angered that someone could be that brilliant at their profession, yet so dim in their life.
I'll never be a fan of his.
He did serve his time for what he did. But unless he saves a mom and her puppies from an ice floe going over Niagra Falls?
And even then, I would not readily forgive him.
-----------------------
I guess it's up to what history will say about him.
I do believe in penance and forgiveness, but that's further down the line and not up to me to hand them out.
If you watch him play, you will see an exceptional talent. IT is separate from his personal life, but you are the same being when you walk into/onto your job.
IT's his cross to bear and it will follow him forever.:o
@Nom- okay, imagine this: a teacher gets convicted of pedophilia, serves his/her time and is released. Ok to go back to teaching? I think most of us would say that is an "H" to the "N", right? Why? Cause certain crimes ARE different than others. This one was one of them, to me. Sometimes people cannot be rehabilitated. Animal abuse isn't about the animal...it is about the person.
I think he should never, ever, be allowed within 10 feet of an animal, alone. I think people, as a whole, should stand up and do something more when it comes to crimes like this. Not just welcome him into the football fold as if he ran a red light. Why? Cause maybe just maybe there would be the fear of a public shunning for doing certain things.
Back in the day? Not yours or mine, I realize...but, 'bad' people didn't really get that free pass back into society. My parents weren't friends with kids that had been in the klink. To this day, the ONLY people I know that have served time in prison are clients. I don't associate with people that are convicted felons, outside of my job. Actually, can't really say I associate with people that are convicted misdemeanorers', either. I am excluding the traffic offenders, btw. Does that mean I am judgmental? As if there were a doubt, right?
Certainly, I think Pres O shouldn't have said a thing.
I just pushed away from the comp and thought about the numbers.
In the United States there are, what 300 million people?
Of those there are 1300 that play football.
Of those 1300, 32 start in the QB slot for an NFL team.
MV is one of the 32.
Not trying to plead his case?
That is one of the moind boggling facts.
He is good enough to play, but too stupid to stay out of trouble?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataholic
Not to cause a fight.......
But the pedo teacher is a different scenario.
MV wasn't putting NFL players to death....this was something that most likely voided the clause in his contract-some players have to sign an "I'll behave" contract. Goodell, the NFL commish suspended him, the law took their piece and according to him, Vick has discharged his sentence and can play again.
There also is the fact the NFL players do have a union contract and can hire the best lawyers to fight their cases.
It's not a world that I will ever visit.....there have been tons of S-heads that have played.
Look up Ray Lewis, Rae Carruth, the kid from the Broncos that was killed on a NY's eve a few years ago...then check out all the Guys that get busted for violating the League drug policy......
There are people in the game, now and then, who were scumbags of the same magnitude as MV...
First off let me say I haven't read anyone's replies - I will go back and do so later. And secondly I do NOT follow sports I only follow what has been sensationalized locally. But in my own humble opinion - I think EVERY man in ANY sport (and I say Man b/c you don't really hear about women doing some of the things men have done) that has a felony on his record needs their salary revoked and given to the charity closest to the crime they commited. Drug abuse, animal abuse, domestic violence etc. And they need to be out on their a## and let someone that DESERVES the job be in the job!
But anyone who thinks he is rehabilitated
read
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Dogs-Mich.../dp/1592405509
THE LOST DOGS by JIM GORANT
Call yourself an animal lover and that Vick has rehabilitated and is repentant??Read about Michael Vick (HIMSELF) and one of his cronies taking a defenseless dog and b/c she wasn't fighting the way they wanted her to, they picked her up by her hind legs and took turns beating her against the floor and wall until almost every bone in her body is broken and she is dead. Now picture that as your precious dog or cat. Or read about how his cronies beat the dogs to death with a shovel, or hung them, or drowned them in 5 gallon buckets. And remember Vick says "I didn't know what I was doing was wrong!" what part of you in your every loving right mind would possibly thing putting anything to death in the ways you did would NOT be wrong?
and if he was convicted of being a sexual offender instead of animal cruelty - would you REALLY want him living beside you? beside your children? Do you really want him living by your pets?
Absolutely a pedophile should not be allowed anywhere near children. But Vick abused animals (which I absolutely ABHOR. I think any animal fighting is disgusting and dispicable - including human boxing. I think it is dehumanizing. But animal is worse because they do not have a choice.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataholic
And while I may think most NFL players are animals ;) - they are not the kind of animal Vick abused.
I have this situation with managers frequently - they don't want to hire someone who has had a conviction - and my argument - if they have been punished and no one will hire them - what will they do to make a living? More crimes?
Of course, it depends on the nature of the crime and the job for which they seek employment. That doesn't mean I want to hang out with convicted felons nor condone the crimes committed.
Disgusted as I am by what Vick did - and as much as I think sports figures are overpaid - there is a principle about redemption, debt to society paid, etc. that needs to be considered.
What is making me sick to my stomach is that MV is talking about owning dogs again. Scary.:eek: I don't care if he plays football again, the man has to make a living even if I detest him. The NFL SHOULD make him pay a large percentage of his salary to the ASPCA for the rest of his career. That way, some good could come from his reinstatement and high salary.
Again, not to start a fight?
Look if your loved one or SO was caught molesting kids/killing dogs/pedaling kiddie porn, it would be a different story.
Some of you would pledge solidarity to the death or run for hills.
Either way?
I hope none of you ever have to go thru that, but in reality?
Any scorn, hate or malice we hold toward MV doesn't really mean shiat.
And altho we watch from the periphery? It really doesn't matter.
---------------
THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING ABOUT THE STORY that Staci posted was the fact that MV 'didn't know what he was doing was wrong".
That is a major flaw in the way he was raised and to me, a far more sinister problem-Vick is the one exposed to the public, how many other knuckleheads are there that roam the country unimpeded?
---------------
There are people who have given people who have been in jail a chance.
The only one who gets thanked by the prez is the moron who gave MV the job.
With so many people out of work that DESERVE A JOB?
Barack Obama thanks the guy that hired the most obviously stupid offender.
Vick probably won BO the fantasy league championship with his play over the year.
I would not put it above the POTUS to start MV on his team..What a guy.:rolleyes::o:(
It seems to me that big-time sports superstars (and probably superstars in other big-time public worlds) get a free and easy pass on things like this. Just look at convicted-rapist-who-served-his-time Kobe Bryant. Even if they did these nasty things, they still can bring in huge amounts of money for themselves and those who give them the "second chance."
What this does is give a loud statement to the whole world that what that person did is really not that bad after all, since he is so talented (even if it is that bad if some non-super-talent did it). In other words, the evil of the deed itself is relative depending on who is doing it.
How many other publicly-known convicted rapists, animal killers, and others guilty of similarly heinous offenses would be rehired in their pre-conviction professions? There are many other people out there who did their crimes, served their time, and have no one giving them that "second chance."
I have to say I am EXTREMELY disappointed in President Obama because of this.
KB was never convicted, he settled out of court and the charges were dropped when the woman refused to testify in the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by phesina
It does suck when people get to walk on any kind of criminal case.
He also signed a huge contract -about 130 million - to endorse a product. He also got back some of his endorsement contracts after he was 'cleared', I don't like KB either but it can't denied that both of the idiots are talented beyond their 'smartness'
I am not making a case for them, nor am I praising them-it's just a fact that they are good at what they do. They do not deserve any special treatment in the real world, but I do find the people that wear the jerseys and make it an extra effort to hold them in the same esteem they had before they screwed up, to be just as stupid as their 'heroes' are.
I don't care whether he plays ball or collects garbage, but he should
never ever own another dog, or any other animal for the rest of his life.
After reading about his recorded interview where he expressed a desire
to have another dog, I just about got sick to my stomach.:(:( He said
his kids were asking why they couldn't get a dog and he felt bad for them.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Maybe he should tell his children the real reason why they can't have a dog.:mad:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...n-a-dog-again/
Sorry, I thought Kobe was convicted and served time. (Now I suppose he'll sue me for libel, and win.) Shows you how closely I follow professional sports!Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
Still, if either of these guys, talented as they are, had ever been convicted of child abuse, they'd be history. That is the one crime that is unforgivable. But rape and animal torture/murder get a pass depending on who's done it. Such a world!
I think Es's argument that MV should be forgiven is just plain wrong. The guy deserves every bit of punishment on and off the field he gets, regardless of how ES and President Obama feel about second chances.
And Liz, we all know MV wont tell his kids why he cant own a dog, you should call them and tell them why they cant have a puppy.
I say give them a copy of the book I mentioned and tell them that if the puppy potty's on the floor - it might get drowned in its own water bowl or beaten until it is dead b/c in his knuckleheaded pea brain that's proper punishment. Wonder what he does to those girls when they do wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
Hey, we can agree to disagree about whether MV deserve a second chance or not, but really, his kids could just be told "No, you cannot have a dog. When you are a grown-up, and have your own place to live, then you can get whatever dog you want. You just cannot have one now."
I don't know how old his children are, but I am sure they will, sooner or later, learn of what he did. Better they hear it from him, now, and know that his former behavior is the reason they cannot have a dog now, than they find out from some schoolmate in a hateful way. It could be a lesson in actions having consequences, if handled correctly. But he should never, ever be allowed the privilege of owning a dog again.
Isn't that sometimes incorporated with animal abuse cases, where the abuser can NEVER own another animal again? For some reason I feel like that has been posted here before.
Accusations Accusations....no proof....just accusations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataholic
Don't like my posts ??? DON'T READ THEM :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
Holy smokes! We agree! (Well, on the core principal here about crime, punishment and REDEMPTION!)
So, I guess zebra's CAN change their stripes after all?
Just curious...how do you know that? How do you know the president didn't thank other people who gave ex-convicts a job? How do you know this is the only one who gets thanked?Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
What if he HAD been a garbage man? Should he be barred from ever being a garbage man again?
If you accept the sentiment - of the president thanking someone who gave an ex-con a second chance - would it be different if the ex-con was a pedophile? Rapist? Murderer? Drug dealer?
I don't pretend to play politics like you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
And I really don't give a shiat about the garbage man, I paid property taxes and expect my trash to get hauled. As I said before and your eyes may have glazed over when you got to the part where I said that MV has a union and all the money to hire lawyers to get his job back. What garbage man has that luxury?
BTW?
Bill Richardson couldn't give Billy the Kid a pardon, so why should MV get one?
------------
I haven't played 'what if' with you in a while, let's make it a while more?;)
I completely agree, that a pedophile should not be allowed to teach children. I just see this as slightly different, because he wasn't doing something that related to football. I think that the general public will shun him, and perhaps him being in the limelight is a way for that to continue to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataholic
And yes, he should NEVER be allowed to be near animals again - that I completely agree with as well. I am just not sure that he shouldn't "be allowed" to play football again.. but like I said, I'm not able to look at this clearly.
sure...try the truth...or at least some approximation of it and I'll be glad to make it forever!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
I just don't like overblown rhetoric..."why is the ONLY one..." when you don't have any idea if it is true or not.
umm -
yea - back to the TOPIC - at hand -
rather than the the TOTAL change of topic it turned too
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz19fIWHlyX
"The details that got to me then and stay with me today involve the swimming pool that was used to kill some of the dogs," Reynolds wrote on her blog. "Jumper cables were clipped onto the ears of underperforming dogs, then, just like with a car, the cables were connected to the terminals of car batteries before lifting and tossing the shamed dogs into the water."
She continued, "We don't know how many suffered this premeditated murder, but the damage to the pool walls tells a story. It seems that while they were scrambling to escape, they scratched and clawed at the pool liner and bit at the dented aluminum sides like a hungry dog on a tin can.
"I wear some pretty thick skin during our work with dogs, but I can't shake my minds-eye image of a little black dog splashing frantically in bloody water ... screaming in pain and terror ... brown eyes saucer wide and tiny black white-toed feet clawing at anything, desperate to get a hold. This death did not come quickly. The rescuer in me keeps trying to think of a way to go back in time and somehow stop this torture and pull the little dog to safety. I think I'll be looking for ways to pull that dog out for the rest of my life."
Vick did all that and more to his dogs, and even threw family pets into the pit with fighters and laughed while they were mauled, according to a witness who testified to federal investigators.
That's what sends dog lovers out to football games with protest signs: knowing that Michael Vick tortured and killed innocent dogs. That he has never paid for that abuse or even apologized for it.
Because the nation's most notorious dogfighter pled "not guilty" to animal cruelty charges -- charges that were eventually dropped in a plea bargain -- and he was convicted only of bankrolling a dogfighting conspiracy, for which he served 18 months in prison before being welcomed back to the public spotlight.
Even worse, he's shown no sign of understanding of, or regret over, the fate of his dogs.
"Vick has never expressed one word of remorse for what he did to those dogs," said McClay. "Not in any of his public statements, and not in his appearance on '60 Minutes.' Vick said he 'let it happen.' He slammed and beat and hung dogs to death. It's like Ted Bundy saying, 'I let someone murder this girl.' He doesn't take any responsibility for it."
Reynolds doesn't think it's an accident that most of Vick's supporters are so in the dark about his crimes against dogs.
"It worked out nicely for Vick that he never faced his animal abuse charges in court," she told me. "That meant football fans were spared the most disturbing details of his tortures and could go back to their Sunday night ritual with barely a hiccup."
But by all means - he has served his time and b/c these are dogs and not kids let's forgive him. :rolleyes:
When I was at 5 Dog Mom's house the other night she said something that makes total sense. We as dog and cat/animal lovers find this whole thing horrific and of COURSE we don't forgive him. But people that don't care about animals and have no regard for their suffering and pain, are the ones that think he needs forgiven.
Ask him if he wants a guy that is convicted of burglary and theft, or a rapist/sexual offender moving in beside you. They served their time too. ;) Or a guy (or woman for that matter) convicted of beating an elderly person, does he want that person to move in beside his mom or grandma?? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz_Zoee
I suck and try not to blow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
It works for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
Be a big man & let it go Richard. Did you read Staci's posts? Comment on
the subject of the thread why don't you.
Please, I commented and someone challenged me to 'try the truth'?Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbud
If hinted at you being a liar, I am sure you'd feel a bit put out.
---------
If someone doesn't like my 'overblown rhetoric' I invite them to pass on my posts.
And if anyone thinks they can do better at 'truth' then I am?
They indeed are bigger people than I am. And god knows big people never lie.
:o
To clarify my earlier posts. I never said I thought MV should be banned from football because his crime involved football players, and I didn't liken a pedophile and a teaching career with a animal abuser and a football career because of the victim. I did it because of the defendant. Why? See below.
What I said, or at least meant, was that a animal abuser, like pedophilia is NOT about the crime, it is about the person. A pedophiliac (sic) is prohibited from being around children ever again because it is the type of crime that warrants such post-prison control. It is a crime from which people really don't 'recover'. It carries with it reporting guidelines, housing guidelines, etc. Few crimes carry that sort of post parole control. Though, some do. For instances, convicted felons, post parole, lose the right to carry a firearm, and vote. The government has seen it fit to continue to "burden" certain criminals and certain crimes with extra punishment. I think animal abuse should be one of them.
I think MV should be banned from the limelight, spotlight, etc. I think football teams that pick this person up should be shunned. The 'price' for such infamy will not be paid by my purse strings, thats for sure.
In the situation with a pedophile, and to continue on with Staci's well said post, do you want YOUR children taught be a 'reformed' pedophile? Do you want YOUR mother living next door to a rapist? Do you want YOUR dog cared for by MV? Do you want YOUR child to emulate MV? I know my answers.
To me, some crimes are those from which people simply do not recover. MV's crime is one of them. I think he should be shunned from polite society until the good Lord takes over the matter. I think the dogs deserve no less of a commitment. Think of all the money, fame and fortune they never saw.
:(
Thank you for clarifying - it makes more sense to me now. :)
Forgot to mention before but after reading this thread I decided to go ahead
and order the book, The Lost Dogs. I had always wanted to get it, but never
remembered to buy it when I was out shopping. I ordered it online and it was
delivered yesterday. I've only just began reading it.
Lizbud-
It's a great book once you get past the graphic chapters in the beginning.
I got it for Christmas and finished it in 2 days.