just gave this some thought....

[aly]

I saw on the news today how Mel Gibson is being very vocal about how he doesn't support stem cell research. He and Arnold are a little bit at each other's throats right now.

Mel was saying that even if he had a disease and embryotic stem cell research offered a cure for it, he would rather die than use it.

For those who are against the embryotic stem cell research, do you agree with Mel? Would you die before you used it to cure your disease?

[carole]

NO aly I would not rather die than find a cure this way, I have a husband and two children and two furbabies who need me in their life very much, and besides I want my life to continue for as long as possible.

Some would agree and say yes, but the proof would be in the pudding as the saying goes, when and if they were actually faced with this situation, talk is cheap., I have to wonder if it were Mel's children faced with this, if he would still feel the same way?

Because I believe in this research, does not mean I would go to any lengths to save my life, but for me there is no conscience, I have no problem with it, and my beliefs don't interfere with that in any way.

[heinz57_79]

Jumping back in again...

Pam, regarding Bush acting on what HE believes to be morally right, etc the whole thing is what HE thinks to be morally right may not be what everyone else believes to be right. Hence my point on Presidential decisions should not be coloured by personal biases.

I do think that most stem cell research comes from the already aborted fetus, and/or discarded umbilical cords, which is why I said it is tied very closely to the right to choose. If a woman chooses, either for health reasons or whatever else, to abort the fetus why shouldn't that fetus then be used for research that may one day save millions of lives? THe way I see it, women will ALWAYS have abortions, whether safely and legally, or with drugs in their bathroom. It's going to happen. So why not embrace the right to choose, make sure the women have a safe, clean environment, then use the fetus for good?

Saying definitely what you would do if ever faced with the possibility of an abortion is very hard to do unless you've actually been there. I had often told myself I would NEVER do it. I have a friend who was SO against abortion, until something happened to her and she had to make the choice. It is one of the hardest decisions to make.

[shutterbug0303]

I was just scrolling around and happened upon this thread. I hate to start this going again since the last post was a few days ago, but after reading the posts, I did a bit of research on fetuses in general. Just FYI, I am pro-life, and am against stem cell research and in vitro fertilization, but that is totally in my own opinion and do not want to try and change anyones. Also, I am quite impressed about the nature of the discussion on this thread! So civil, and everyone is bringing up great points. I hope the information I am about to post is enlightening....

After researching a few different websites, I was able to decipher that the heartbeat of "fetus" (for argument's sake) begins at about 18-21 days. At this point, the fetus is in a worm-like shape, not resembling a human in most forms.

12 or so days after conception, the cells that are forming into the fetus begin to produce hormones that can be detected in the urine. Shortly after this time, women may tend to notice that their menstural cycle is late, brining them to use a home-pregnancy test.

So, if someone noticed they were "late" on the 12th day and there were enough hormones to detect a positive pregnancy...there is a slim (but possible) chance that they would be in to have an abortion before the 18-21st day of pregnancy, when the heartbeat begins.

I don't want to impose my views on this subject to anyone, but thought that the timing in conception, development, and abortion was interesting. URL=http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm]http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm[/URL] is one of the websites I used, but this one was the most comprehensive.

Thank you for allowing me to post this information. Like I said, I am very impressed with the make-up of this "debate" and find everyone's opinions very interesting and worth-while! This issue is very deep and there will never be an "agreement" on the topic, but to be able to discuss all the sides in such a civil manner will really help to clear up a lot of confusion from both sides.

[carole]

Thank you so much for your valuable input, I started the thread and I too am happy to see it going so well, with everyone keeping their cool and debating this in an adult matter.,especially as it is a very controversial one.

I find what you say very interesting indeed and not something I was aware of.

Yes a lot of us will just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this subject, as we all have our views and although I am not prepared to change mine, I do accept others and respect them.

[Corinna]

This has been and I hope it will remain a civil discusstion. Ladys Human had Pam have pretty much stated my feelings.
I just have a couple of thoughts to add. As a diabetic also I would love to be able to wake up every morning feeling like I was a live ,not stiff and confused . They are othe cell researches going on that could help me . But .... the embronic researchers are getting all the funding ( squeeky wheel thing) They are so close and now it has been slowed to a crawl. How do you decide which diseases are more imoprtant that others.
I heard a report (can't remeber from source) that they can only use embronic lines 3 generations then they seem to degrade. But using adult cells they don't . It seems to me that if you need a liver you would use liver cells , pancreas you use those cells. I am a little fuzzy on what is so great about and why embronic cells are being used for all research.
As side note I saw my grandson at 14 weeks he not only had a heartbeat but hands and feet he was evern trying to suck his thumb. I can't imangine any one cuttting him up as a research project . Just becouse he was a spontanious abortion ( daughter had a huge blood infection) He still was a baby. We even got his creamated remains back.
as to invitro, Have lots of freinds whom can't conceive all have opted for not perfect adopted children ,just becouse of the destroying of unused embroys. There are lots of children avalible but if you want PERFECT kids the wait can be long. Most of my freinds lovingly have deaf, blind, downs and kids that have cancers . These kids would have been in stste foster care for ever if not for big open hearts.
My last point , kind of a pet(sorry) peeve . Overseas adoptions when there are lots of not perfect kids here. (Boy I should have stayed away from the dog house on this Thread)

[heinz57_79]

I, too, am glad this has managed to remain civil. Everyone has put forth some very good points.

I only have one last comment, regarding shutterbug (i think it was you! hehe) being against invitro. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, I would just like to say in defense of invitro, for someone such as myself it may be that the only way I would be able to have a child with my genes. It's a modern, scientific miracle that allows couples who would normally be unable to conceive to have children. Personally, I can't wait!

[shutterbug0303]

Heinz...that makes total sense to me!! I definitely respect that. The only part about invitro I'm not sure about (and I am still debating this point myself) is the fact that science is attempting to "play God" in a sense. Maybe there is a reason why someone is unable to have children...it is God's plan for them. But that is bringing in my religious beliefs...I totally respect your plans though, and good luck!! I guess that is my issue with abortion as well. My Bible upbringing gives me great respect for the unborn...and even the "not yet concieved". Jeremiah 29:11 says: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."" Also, Jeremiah 1:5 says: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." So, these are the passages I go on...God has a purpose and plan for each of us. But like I said, I am bringing my religious beliefs into this...and don't want to try and force them on anyone at all. Just more food for thought

p.s. I have some other thoughts/questions on this topic (invitro) but I don't think I can post them on here...they may be a bit "graphic" in a sense....?!?!?!

[heinz57_79]

Originally posted by shutterbug0303
p.s. I have some other thoughts/questions on this topic (invitro) but I don't think I can post them on here...they may be a bit "graphic" in a sense....?!?!?!

I say if you have ?'s, start a thread in the dog house and ask away! hehe I'm sure Karen will let us know if it gets too, uh, "too". lol

[Lady's Human]

Given that adult stem cell research is showing great promise, and embryonic stem cell research is an issue that the jury is still very much out on, I would personaly like to see the research continue on adult stem cell treatments continue as the main effort. My main problem with the embryonic stem cell research issue is that it has been politicized to the point that it has been.
As someone on a military message board said, the reason that the embryonic stem cell research people need federal funding is that so far adult stem cell research has shown more promise, fewer side effects in testing, etc., so all the private money (or the bulk of it) is going toward adult stem cell research. If Glaxco Smith, etc thought they could make money off of it they would be funding the research themselves, much like biotech startups have done with other research projects.

[Lady's Human]

That having been said, my sincere thanks to the people who have managed to engage in this debate without the vitriol and name calling that I have seen other PT threads devolve into.

[carole]

I also wish to thank everyone for their opinions and the manner in which this thread has continued, I knew it could be opening up a can of worms so to speak when I started the thread, but it was an issue that is very important to me, it just goes to show we can all have different views, but be adult and civil about it.

If indeed there is more chance of curing diseases using adult stem cells, then yes of course I would be all for that.,but to be honest if a cure is found and offered to my family I will be taking it.

I have valued each and every opinion from you all, and taken things into account I had not even thought about before, so it has been an interesting and informative debate.