just gave this some thought....

[carole]

I fully respect what Pam and others have said, and it is all about what you believe in, some people believe life begins from conception, others donot.

I am not necessarily for or against abortion, every circumstance is different and should be taken into account, but I really take the same line or point of view as Donna mentioned and I agree with her.

Sorry if I was mis-informed about Bush, but that is how the media portrayed it here, that he was indeed against stem cell research, it did not elaborate futher, typical bad media reporting, not telling the full story.

For some people like Guster Girl for example who are not sure whether to vote or who for, it may indeed be one simple difference as this, that sways her decision.

I can only say, that if indeed my own life and that of my children can be saved, through this, I am all for it, dying a slow, horrible death is not something I want for myself or my children,if maybe you had the prospect of this being a reality, one might feel somewhat different, but again it all comes down to what you believe, and its obvious what I believe.

[aly]

Thsi is a big issue for me ... a really big one close to my heart. I feel that I can have a greater quality of life because I do have a disease that could potentially be cured with this research. It is one of the main reasons I am for Kerry. It is by far not the only reason, but maybe the most important one.

I am Pro-life though. It is a huge moral struggle that I just don't have the right answer to. I do think that abortions should happen if the mother's health is at risk though. I just strongly disagree with them used as a form of birth control.

Myself, along with millions of others, can be saved from these terrible chronic illnesses that interrupt our normal daily lives. I am so tired of being sick all the time and I just want to get better.

[heinz57_79]

I've been busy as all get out the past few weeks, what with a new job, and moving and all, but I keep browsing the threads RE. voting, etc. This one caught my eye, and I actually have a few spare minutes so I thought I'd jump in.

Carole made a very good point about it may be one issue that sways a vote. I've actually already voted (via mail) and I put in my vote for Kerry. There were several things that swayed me - my rights as a lesbian, tax-paying American citizen being the most important. But Bush's views on women and women's rights were another.

On Oct. 13th, Bush refused to join 85 other countries in signing a statement that endorsed a 10 year old UN plan to ensure every woman's right to education, health care and choice about having children. The plan was to ensure "an action plan to ensure universal access to reproductive health information and services; uphold fundamental human rights, including sexual and reproductive; alleviate poverty; secure gender equality; and protect the environment". Why did he refuse to sign? Because the statement included a reference to "sexual rights". The US Deputy Asst. Secretary of State Kelly Ryan said, "The United States is unable... to endorse the world leaders' statement because it includes the concept on 'sexual rights', a term that has no agreed definition in the international community." This administration has raised objections on numerous occasions to the phrase "sexual rights", speaking out against abortion, Gay rights, and what they see as the promotion of promiscuity by giving condoms to young people to prevent AIDS.

To me, the stem cell issue is tied very closely to the right to choose. And it is my opinion that politics should not be ruled by opinions, but by what is right. And what is right is NOT taking away people's rights, whether it's the right to choose to end a pregnancy (as long as it is not used frivilously), the right to love whoever you want and to marry them if you want to. In this country, we all pay the same taxes, we all have to abide by the same laws, so why shouldn't each and every one of us be given ALL the same rights?

I know this got a wee bit off topic, but it's kinda the same idea.

[guster girl]

Originally posted by lizbud
I believe that if you really don't have a clear idea about the
issues & each candidates views on the issues,by now, you should not vote blindly. I certainly don't mean for this to be a slam on you
personally. It is very hard to get a clear picture of someone's
intentions if elected President, but is very easy to check into
pass actions to predict future ones.

I've been researching it for several months now, and, it just doesn't get any clearer to me. I'm trying to find one issue that makes sense and that I have no doubts on. I wouldn't vote blindly, I can assure you that. It's something I've said a few times already, I'd rather people not vote if they don't know. But, I'm still studying....we'll see.

[moosmom]

I just strongly disagree with them used as a form of birth control.

Absolutely! That's why we have Planned Parenthood. To teach people how to act responsibly.


Heinz,

And it is my opinion that politics should not be ruled by opinions, but by what is right. And what is right is NOT taking away people's rights, whether it's the right to choose to end a pregnancy (as long as it is not used frivilously), the right to love whoever you want and to marry them if you want to. In this country, we all pay the same taxes, we all have to abide by the same laws, so why shouldn't each and every one of us be given ALL the same rights?

You hit the nail right on the head on that one!

[carole]

I so understand where you are coming from Aly, I share your view, it is a difficult one for me too, but facing the uncertainty of inheriting an awful fatal disease and that for my children as well, I can only but support the stem cell research, I am sure if many were in my shoes they would see it differently too.

It is one that I have trouble with too,and so I can see it from both points of view for sure.

[Miranda_Rae]

Originally posted by Pam
I think the thing that I have the hardest time dealing with here at Pet Talk is the extraordinary measures that people will go to for pets who are in such fragile states from abuse and such (and I am not minimizing this nor am I in disagreement). The thing that amazes me is that when we are dealing with a human life at its most fragile we are so quick to say “it’s only a few cells.” It is not. It is a beating heart!

I don't think life should be created to be destroyed. I can understand those who would like this research to continue but I do not believe that killing the innocent to accomplish this is morally correct. I know the flames will come, and if they do so be it. Be aware that once the young and innocent are no longer vauable in a society the next will be the elderly and infirm. There is much to this debate and I won't get involved as I am not really an argumentative person. My heart bleeds for this country and the path it will go down if John Kerry should be elected. End of rant.

I agree with you Pam 100%. I also do not want to start an arguement, but i would like to state my views without offending anyone.

I am Pro-Life. I can not concieve the idea of killing a baby before its born simply because the mother didn't want it or something to that extent. As for a person being raped, I do not believe a person should punish the baby for someone elses evil deed. I know with all my heart that if I was raped and I got pregnant I would NEVER have an abortion, that is something my heart is set upon. Also, if I was a mother and my life was at risk because of the baby inside of me, and I had the choice to abort the baby to save my life I would NOT do it. I can not justify killing a innocent baby to save myself. If that is the way that I would die then I would die that way, because I can not, and would not kill a baby so that I could live.

I do not know the whole scoop on stem cell research, so I will not comment on it, as I do not know a whole lot on it.

I can understand how people love animals, but to put them before a human life, an innocent baby's life, to get upset over the horrible crimes against animals, but that killing a baby just rolls off their back, that saddens me deeply.

I did not and do not intend to offend or upset anyone, JMHO.

[carole]

Miranda Rae, I competely understand your stance on this and I am not saying you are right or wrong here.These are your beliefs and you feel strongly about them, and thats great,mine just differ is all,and I am certainly NOT offended by them, as I hope no-one is by mine..

For me I just have a different opinion,I don't consider cells to be a human life, thats just MO, therefore if taking a few cells can cure incurable horrible diseases, and save the life of my children, who I adore and love and have personalitys, then sorry I am all for it.

cells to me have no personality, I have not grown to love them, hold them, cherish them or given birth to them, and nutured them for many years.

I certainly am NOT for abortions left right and center.

P.S I admire your stance,but hopefully you have not been in either situation, I think that can make a difference, we can say what we will and won't do,but when we are actually in the situation we may feel different,just a thought.

[Miranda_Rae]

Originally posted by carole
Miranda Rae, I competely understand your stance on this and I am not saying you are right or wrong here.These are your beliefs and you feel strongly about them, and thats great,mine just differ is all.

For me I just have a different opinion,I don't consider cells to be a human life, thats just MO, therefore if taking a few cells can cure incurable horrible diseases, and save the life of my children, who I adore and love and have personalitys, then sorry I am all for it.

cells to me have no personality, I have not grown to love them, hold them, cherish them or given birth to them, and nutured them for many years.

I certainly am NOT for abortions left right and center.

I was not speaking about the cells mainly, I was speaking about abortion and how when a baby is growing in a mothers stomache where you can see its heart beating, and people just go "oh its a fetus...its not a baby until its born!" but it IS a baby. You can see its little heart beating. Thats what I was talking about mainly. I don't know much about the stem cell research, but I should read up on it.

[Miranda_Rae]

Originally posted by carole
P.S I admire your stance,but hopefully you have not been in either situation, I think that can make a difference, we can say what we will and won't do,but when we are actually in the situation we may feel different,just a thought.

What situations are you talking about, may I ask? If you are talking about if I was raped and got pregnant, I KNOW with ALL my heart that I would NEVER get an abortion.

[Kfamr]

VERY well said JC. I agree with everything you've said.

As for a person being raped, I do not believe a person should punish the baby for someone elses evil deed. I know with all my heart that if I was raped and I got pregnant I would NEVER have an abortion, that is something my heart is set upon.

I'm in no way saying you're wrong for what you said, but just think...
Wouldn't a child knowing that his/her father raped his/her mother, be punshiment?

Without saying names, I have a friend who's father she's never met. Her mother was raped, and her mother chose to have the child. My friend is now 16 and has had the worst emotional problems any 16 year old has to deal with.
It's even worse for her when people ask why she lives with her grandparents instead of her mother and father.

I AM thankful that her mother brought her into this world, she is one of the most wonderful friends i've ever had, but with all of the pain and suffering she's been through, knowing that she was created in such a way, she has had SO many mental and emotional issues I can't help but to feel bad for her... and think -- would it have been better if her mother chose abortion??

[carole]

Miranda Rae, yes I was meaning what you quoted,I guess you know your'e own mind, but maybe and I hope it never does happen, if it did are you 100 percent sure you would make that choice,? especially if it was early enough that the baby was not at the stages you mentioned, I too could not go ahead and abort a baby that far on.

This thread is going a bit off topic, its more about stem cell research than abortion, but its all kinda wound up in one.

I am guessing you have strong religious beliefs, whereas I have none, but my own conscience would not let me do that either.

kay I also know of a person who was raped and kept their child, they also have emotional problems, but who's to say they would not anyhow, could just be a coincidence. It is a tough call either way.

I certainly have the utmost respect for your opinion and admire your comittment to your beliefs.

[Miranda_Rae]

Originally posted by Kfamr
VERY well said JC. I agree with everything you've said.





I'm in no way saying you're wrong for what you said, but just think...
Wouldn't a child knowing that his/her father raped his/her mother, be punshiment?

Without saying names, I have a friend who's father she's never met. Her mother was raped, and her mother chose to have the child. My friend is now 16 and has had the worst emotional problems any 16 year old has to deal with.
It's even worse for her when people ask why she lives with her grandparents instead of her mother and father.

I AM thankful that her mother brought her into this world, she is one of the most wonderful friends i've ever had, but with all of the pain and suffering she's been through, knowing that she was created in such a way, she has had SO many mental and emotional issues I can't help but to feel bad for her... and think -- would it have been better if her mother chose abortion??

I understand what you mean, but as for what I believe and something that I very much am set on I could not with a clean concious kill my baby, even though I was raped. Because inside me would be a baby that is part of ME, not only part of the rapist but of me. I also have emotional and mental issues but I grew up in a VERY loving home. Say someone was raped and they had the baby and put it up for adoption and the baby was adopted by a very loving and caring family. My aunt was adopted (I don't know the circumstances surrounding her birth and parents) but I know that she makes my life SO much more special, and if her life was ended before she was able to live it, I know that I wouldn't have such a wonderful aunt. I can understand that having the child know that the her father is a rapist can be VERY hard and punishing to the child, but to choose to end that childs life before it even got to life it is something I could not do. Also, a person whose mother is raped and it has a lot of emotional/mental issues, can get over those (I am in NO way say that its like "oh just get over it!" because I KNOW how hard it is), and become a help for other people, for the world and can become someones dear friend (not saying that they can't do that while they are hurting/struggling) but when a person has sorted through all their issues they can help other people much better, trust me. I hope I made myself clear. And I am in no way trying to start an arguement etc.

[Miranda_Rae]

Originally posted by carole
Miranda Rae, yes I was meaning what you quoted,I guess you know your'e own mind, but maybe and I hope it never does happen, if it did are you 100 percent sure you would make that choice,? especially if it was early enough that the baby was not at the stages you mentioned, I too could not go ahead and abort a baby that far on.

This thread is going a bit off topic, its more about stem cell research than abortion, but its all kinda wound up in one.

I am guessing you have strong religious beliefs, whereas I have none, but my own conscience would not let me do that either.

kay I also know of a person who was raped and kept their child, they also have emotional problems, but who's to say they would not anyhow, could just be a coincidence. It is a tough call either way.

I certainly have the utmost respect for your opinion and admire your comittment to your beliefs.

Yes, I have strong religious beliefs, and they are important to me. Also, yes that is something that i would choose. I don't think anyone could change my mind on that, no matter if it was my dearest, closest friend, family, etc. I am sorry that I kind of took it away from the stem cell research.

[carole]

You raise some good points Miranda Rae, many that I simply cannot disagree with.