Stoned to death

[popcornbird]

PCB: Talmudic law and Christian law are not the same thing.

You're quoting one and calling it the other.

John 8:7


So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

The last person I know who had no sin was strung up on a cross about 2000 years ago.

Actually, I am not quoting one and calling it the other. As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in the New Testament, you should believe in the laws of the Old Testament. Didn't Jesus say this?:

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

As far as I'm concerned, the Law in the Old Testament is pretty severe, and Jesus, in the New Testament, is saying that he did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

For the sake of argument, even IF you do not believe that, then why are you so quick to condemn Islamic rulings, while completely ignoring Jewish ones?? Do you not see any harsh punishments in the Jewish script?

Regardless, about what Sana is saying...

If any of you have been to any Muslim country, be it Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, whatever...you would know that women covering is not enforced by law and there are tons of women out there who go out in the same way as you see women going out here. It is the media that makes you think every woman in the Middle East is forced to cover up, beaten if she doesn't, and as a Muslim who knows and has seen both the West and the East, I know that is nothing but a bunch of BS. I have relatives in Muslim countries who are more into fashion than the typical American girl, who don't cover at all, and have never been harmed. Women who cover do it by their own choice, as I do. Likewise, men are required by religious law to lower their gaze and not 'stare at' women. Just as covering is not enforced in most countries, lowering the gaze is not enforced in most countries. Religious men do it by their own choice, and yes, they do practice it. I know MANY men, that whenever a group of girls pass in front of them, they look down and avoid staring.

Of course there are good and bad people everywhere, in every culture, and there are some men who are cruel and beat their women, but it is by no means the norm, and as far as I'm concerned, I cannot say I personally know of even one 'abusive/beating' husband. I grew up with a Muslim father who has done nothing but loved us and cared for us our whole lives, played games with us, laughed with us. He is a loving and devoted husband to my mother, and has been for over 35 years. I have a Muslim husband who loves me more than anything and in our nearly 5 years of marriage, has never even scolded me in anger. Perhaps to your surprise, more women in the US convert to Islam than men. When asked why, they say they love how women are respected in the religion. Something to ponder over. A good friend of my husband who became a Muslim said he did so after researching the religion...but what lured him into it was witnessing several Muslim guys walking with their sister at a grocery store, and making sure she didn't have the burden of carrying anything.

Believe your stereotypes as much as you want. Think whatever you want. At the end of the day, you are wrong when you think wrong of others with no basis for your judgement other than the media. I have a dear friend who is a lawyer that has dealt with many cases of domestic abuse (here in the US). She has told me that some cases she comes across are so terrible she comes home in tears, wondering how anyone can do that to their own family. Again, here in the US. Domestic abuse happens everywhere. It is sad. It is terrible. It should never happen. But it happens everywhere, in the East, in the West...everywhere. There will always be some bad people out there, sadly.

Caseysmom, I don't need to trust you when you say there are modest people here. I know there are, and have many friends who are quite modest, and are not Muslim...I'm a Californian, as you are, and I know there are both modest and not so modest people here. I wasn't truely 'criticizing' the 'other side', but I was trying to show how just as they think they can judge others, others might be judging them in the same way for the things they do, and the way they dress.

[Bonny]

popcornbird, Thank you for sharing your culture. You come from a loving family. I have some questions? You have your religion Islam & then their is your culture. If a man of Islam walked by a women of another culture would he lower his eyes or look away? Do women also have to lower their eyes & look away when they see an Islamic a man or men or men of another culture? If that is the case how do you get to meet someone of the opposite sex? Are marriages prearranged by family & is that part of the Islamic religion or culture or both if so. Do the men, women, & children get to worship in the same area in a Mosque? Do you & can you marry outside your religion Islam if you should wish to? Are the men the head of the household like bringing home the wages, or can it be shared where the wife works also? Are there restrictions on careers for men or women that would interfere with the Islamic religion? All these questions but like you said what we hear is what the media puts out there.

[Lady's Human]

PCB, with all due respect, yes, you are.

The New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old Testament, but does not require the Christians convert to Judaism to be Christian.

You cannot quote selected passages of scripture out of context and still get the same meaning. We could debate for ages about this, but I've never seen a church with two sets of dishes to cook a dinner with, and have never seen a church where a ham dinner was out of place.

Tell ya what, I won't quote the Koran, due to contextual issues, you don't quote the bible to me. It's not going to get you anywhere, as for every verse that SEEMS to demand the Old Testament law be followed, I can come up with at least one that doesn't demand it.

As to Muslim countries not requiring females dress a certain way by law? WRONG!

The US has run into many, many diplomatic issues because of US Military uniforms and the fact that we make no distinction between men and women in the service.

[RICHARD]

The US has run into many, many diplomatic issues because of US Military uniforms and the fact that we make no distinction between men and women in the service.

I too fear a woman trained to shoot better than I do.


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Stoned to death, no, but one time I was soooo drunk? I thought I was going to die.

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What is it with the Wild and Crazy Sharia Law?

10 lashes and a fine for wearing pants? Does that go on a woman's permanent record.

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Holy Mole,

That's one of the Mexican Patron Saints-


Beating up people for wearing pants.

You heard about the woman who was given 20 lashes?

She didn't listen the FIRST time.

[popcornbird]

I come back online after a good amount of time only to find THIS??? I'm starting to think, "Thank God I don't have time for Pet Talk anymore!"

Some of you people here are so hateful, so insultive, so terrible that it is unbelievable, and just incredibly sad. It is a shame, truly, that some expect Muslims to be tolerant of everything, while they go about posting things that would cause any Muslim's blood to boil. I will refrain from commenting, because responding to someone who is worthless is just a waste of time.


To Bonny. I was not ignoring you. I am a busy mother of a young infant who keeps me on my toes, and don't even have time to keep up with my emails anymore. PT has become a last priority for me at this time in life. I don't even log on for weeks, or sometimes months at a time...so don't expect to hear from me quickly.

popcornbird, Thank you for sharing your culture. You come from a loving family. I have some questions? You have your religion Islam & then their is your culture. If a man of Islam walked by a women of another culture would he lower his eyes or look away? Do women also have to lower their eyes & look away when they see an Islamic a man or men or men of another culture? If that is the case how do you get to meet someone of the opposite sex? Are marriages prearranged by family & is that part of the Islamic religion or culture or both if so. Do the men, women, & children get to worship in the same area in a Mosque? Do you & can you marry outside your religion Islam if you should wish to? Are the men the head of the household like bringing home the wages, or can it be shared where the wife works also? Are there restrictions on careers for men or women that would interfere with the Islamic religion? All these questions but like you said what we hear is what the media puts out there.

In answer to your questions...Islam is a religion, and cultures are a seperate issue. Many Muslim countries practice 'cultures' that have nothing to do with Islam, and is just their culture. I don't really follow any culture. I just try my best to be a good Muslim.

If a man walks by a woman of ANY culture, he has to lower his gaze. It does not only apply to Muslim women. In fact, I would assume it applies more to women who are 'showing more', and thus, there is more reason to refrain from staring. Keep in mind that this ruling does not apply to women who are family members. We do not cover at home in front of our family. Women are also required to lower their gaze when around unrelated men, however the requirement of lowering the gaze is directed more strongly towards men than it is to women.

The rulings for marriage are different than the general rule. When interested in marriage, one not only can, but SHOULD look at the intended spouse, talk, and come to the conclusion of whether or not they feel suitable for each other before they proceed. There are different ways in which people meet their spouse. Most often, people get references from family or friends, where a parent, sibling, friend, etc. would tell the person, "I know such and such girl who is a wonderful person, beautiful, intelligent, has good manners, loving, etc....whatever one thinks about her.....I think she might be a good option for you. Why don't you look into it?" If the person looking to get married is interested, he or she usually tries to arrange a meeting with the girl/guy, and their family if possible. If they like each other, things usually move forward. If not, they keep looking. We don't date, and we don't go out with the opposite sex without a third person, but most of us get married and love our spouses more than anyone in the world.

Marriages are not 'prearranged' by family (unless the family is very cultural and not really religious), but the potential spouse is often introduced to the suitor by family, or friends. 'Arranged marriages' (where bride meets groom on wedding day ) are actually more of a Hindu custom, not an Islamic one.

About mosques...it depends on the mosque. Most mosques have a seperate hall for men and a seperate one for women, and children go wherever they want, but others just have the men in the front and the women in the back in the same hall.

Its generally not recommended to marry outside the religion. I wouldn't do it even if it were permissible. There is just no way a couple would be able to have a household together and raise kids together when their ideas of raising a family are so different. It would clash, regardless of how much you love each other.

Men are required to take on the responsibility of earning for their family. It is a requirement for them...they have to take that responsibility. Women on the other hand have the option. Women in Islam are allowed to work just as men are, but the financial burden to raise a family is not on their shoulders. In other words, if they wish to work, they can and most do, but they are not required to take this responsibility. There are jobs that both men and women would be forbidden from doing...for example, working at a bank, as working with interest based loans, accounts, etc. is forbidden in our religion. Working at a casino would be wrong for both sexes. Working at a nightclub would be forbidden...etc. The other typical jobs (doctor, teacher, engineer, salesperson, etc. is all allowed for both genders).

I hope I answered your questions.

[Cataholic]

There are jobs that both men and women would be forbidden from doing...for example, working at a bank, as working with interest based loans, accounts, etc. is forbidden in our religion. Working at a casino would be wrong for both sexes. Working at a nightclub would be forbidden...etc. The other typical jobs (doctor, teacher, engineer, salesperson, etc. is all allowed for both genders).

What about lawyers...he he he...