Courtesy, manners and tradition

[Medusa]

Medusa,
I went back and read the OP, and really, while you might not use the word, "bratty" you really do reference the ways kids behave today.
As is often the case, the OP is just the OP, things take on a life of their own after that.

But I did make my point w/out name calling, did I not? If I was to reprimand a child, I would never refer to him/her as a brat but I would definitely make it clear how I felt about their behavior. I feel that I need to reiterate that I don't feel that today's generation is a lost cause and I also don't feel that all kids are ill mannered. As I said, we usually only hear of the bad examples. However, I still think that common courtesy and manners have taken a back seat to an "I'm the center of the Universe" mentality.

[Cataholic]

Yes, you made a point without name calling. The picture painted was still the same, but, no reference to the word brat was contained in your post. That seems really, really significant to you, so, I want to make sure I state that clearly.

It really ties right in to my point about addressing someone by the title, and how it doesn't really convey anything different to me. It is just a word, the respect is behind the action, not the term. Just like your description of the child's behavior was left without a 'label', but, the meaning (brat) was still inferred.

[Medusa]

Yes, you made a point without name calling. The picture painted was still the same, but, no reference to the word brat was contained in your post. That seems really, really significant to you, so, I want to make sure I state that clearly.

It really ties right in to my point about addressing someone by the title, and how it doesn't really convey anything different to me. It is just a word, the respect is behind the action, not the term. Just like your description of the child's behavior was left without a 'label', but, the meaning (brat) was still inferred.

Mr./Mrs./Miss is a title and denotes respectfulness. Brat is a label. Besides, what child are you referring to? I don't recall speaking of one particular child or one particular behavior. I think perhaps I should bone up on my writing and communication skills because I did not want to address children and whether they have or have not changed through the years and I especially was not referring to toddlers. A cranky baby who needs a nap isn't in the same category as a teenager who purposely is disrespectful to adults and even to other teenagers and who should have some manners by that age. I wanted to discuss manners, courtesy and customs. Maybe the word "tradition" was the wrong choice. Customs is a better word. I simply wish to compare how not so few of us were brought up in the 50's as compared to today. I didn't state that one way was better than the other except that I consider the old ways preferable for me, not better.

[sasvermont]

I have been the one chatting about the children and their lack of manners (and called them brats) and wrote about their bad behavior.

I assume we are allowed to go different directions with this topic without getting dressed down. I feel very comfortable saying that all children are not reared the same way - and some - probably many, grow up to be wonderful adults!

I suspect we learn how to be polite, courteous and kind, yes? And that parents play an immense role in how well children adjust in this society.

Times, they are a changing.

[Cataholic]

I have been the one chatting about the children and their lack of manners (and called them brats) and wrote about their bad behavior.

I assume we are allowed to go different directions with this topic without getting dressed down. I feel very comfortable saying that all children are not reared the same way - and some - probably many, grow up to be wonderful adults!.

You were not alone, I, too, went off on this tangent, as that was how I read the OP. And, I do think I can safely say we are "allowed" to do this.

I agree with Sparks (and not just cause she agreed with me, LOL) that the bad behaviour sticks out way more than the good or "normal" behaviour.

Randi- your comment about not curtsying before the Queen was quite funny! My parents are older than both of you and neither of them has ever given me an indication that bowing/curtsying was common in their day.

[RICHARD]

Is that like the pot calling the Kettles,
Ma and Pa instead of Mr. and Mrs.?

It's a joke, if you are old enought to remember the K's!



MY rule of manners is quite simple.

If I say it, I own it.
I can apologize.

If someone offends me?
Tough, I don't care and laugh.

---------------

I am going to toss this one out because I have come across thousands of boorish woman who complaing about manners.


If I open a door for you or wait until you pass in a narrow hallway or push my shopping cart out of YOUR way, take a second to say "thanks" or even look at me crooked.

Many of you -and NO ONE ON THIS BOARD- stick you noses in the air and walk on by, If a clutch of you walk thru and one says "thanks", the rest of you turn, embarrassed as such, and parrot the words so you aren't left out and we men can appreciate the fact that you are polite, you just had to be reminded....


At times I lean in and whisper, "You are welcome" to remind you that you don't see me there. Some women get the hint and will comment, others won't even bother.

If you do say, "thanks", I'll whisper to you....."that's one rule they haven't changed-YET!"
And we will share a laugh about it.

---------

I worked with some "royal" people who were pretty rude-some were nurses who would chastise me for opening a door for them. LOL, after that, If I saw them on campus heading for a door, I would make sure to beat them there and flip it closed on them. Rude works both ways and I don't have alot of time for royalty and people who think they deserve my courtesy.

[Cataholic]

Richard, I think I have posted this before, and it goes right in hand with your post. Jonah LOVES to hold the door open for people at his nursery school. (It irritates me, cause it makes me later than I want to be ). You would be amazed at the number of WOMEN- MOTHERS of small children themselves- walk by as if the cannot see a 4 year old holding the door for them. It makes me so flipping angry. The look in his eye sometimes...and, I do not make excuses for them. I tell him, flat out, "they have no manners, Jonah, but, you do and that is great!".

I don't care if they hear or not. And, yes, I realize that is rude of me. You hurt MY feelings, I will deal with it. You hurt my child's feelings, you'll deal with me. Seems fair.

I have held my fair share of doors, elevators, to other women, and they are usually lacking in the 'thank you' department.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am a volunteer at a local historic site. We give tours for over 40,000 fourth graders each year.

I can tell you MANY things about the behavior of children -- when the parents are not around.

One thing a veteran volunteer told me early on -- is to introduce myself by title Mrs./Ms/Miss not as I had been as Sara.

It has made a tremendous difference. Children know that someone with a title "Ms/Mr." is an authority -- by first name is a friend. When you are trying to control and educate 20 - 25 ten year olds you NEED the authority. (I have had to add a request that the chaperon parents turn off their cell phones to my intro.)

The behavior of the group has nothing to do with economic group - ethnic group - public or private school. Very few of us like to do home school groups though.

Whether it is a good group has to do with the quality of the parents. If they are involved (NOT on the cell phone...NOT disappearing or chatting loudly in the back of the group) and do their job - corraling wanderers - correcting behavior -- it will be a great tour. We will have fun and the kids will learn.

For the most part I enjoy doing the tours but I must say...I do see the "I am the Center of the Universe"/"My Child is the Center of the Universe" more than might be healthy!

[JenBKR]

You make a good point Sara - if you assert yourself as an authority figure from the beginning, even with something as minute as how you are addressed, I think that kids will respond to that. I volunteer at church with the kids two days a week, and I am known as "Miss Jen." It's respectful but familiar at the same time, and *most* of the kids behave well.

Sometimes it's actually the parents who you want to correct. I can imagine you see it all the time. Just out of curiousity, why don't any of you like doing the homeschooled groups?

[Cataholic]

At Jonah's preschool- which is largely a double family unit (except me, he he he), largely caucasian, and more affluent than not (excluding me again, he he) there is a woman that I see nearly 3 times a week. She is dropping off her preschool, and schlepping her infant on her hip (the only term to use is schlep), with her cell phone to her ear. Every time I see her, the phone is there. At first, I thought she had a disesase in which the phone was permanently attached. Later, I realized this wasn't physically possible.

I can see your point, ES, with the title. Those kids ARE strangers to you, and there is no formation of a relationship. My son sees our neighbors all the time (well, in the warm weather). The couple on my one side are probably 10-15 years older than me. They have two grandchildren. I don't remember ever us talking about it, but, everyone is on a first name basis. My other neighbors are generlly younger than me, so, it doesn't seem as significant to them. BUT, if someone asked my son to address them as Mr./Ms...of course, I would honor that. Excluding family, all of my friend's children call me J. ( J, as a joke, will call me 'Mother', which sounds so funny and formal. He knows it makes me laugh, and does it just to get a laugh out of me. )

The Mr/Ms thing is just one of many things I am opinionated on.

[sasvermont]

Hey, I think you all have good thoughts on manners, tradition and courtesy. I enjoy adult like discussions like this!

I would never have made my niece call me Aunt Sallyanne.....even though she refers to me as her Aunt. I am sure that upsets my Mom - since she (my Mom) made me call my Aunts....Aunt whatever. See. This is how it has happened. I love my Aunts but could never call them by their first name, but then won't allow my niece to call me Aunt. Go figure! I mean that I demanded my niece to NOT call me Aunt, not just suggested!

Yesterday, while at work, a little girl stopped at the counter/register, waited until I noticed her, and VERY sweetly, asked if she could use our bathroom/toilet. It is the store policy to refuse such use. I couldn't believe how polite and sweet she was, and hey, guess what? her Mom was just as sweet. One may guess that I agreed to break the rules and walked her back to the toilet. She was maybe 6 at the most. She did not look as though she came from the upper crust of society - by any means. She was sweet, polite, easy to understand and direct. She thanked me several times as did her Mom. I, in turn treated her like royalty. She received a couple of free items and I gave her a Canadian dollar I had in my pocket. I told her how polite she was and how much fun it was to have her in the store........
On the other hand, at other times, there are kids that come in the door and destroy the place, while their Mom and/or Dad is doing their own thing. It drives me crazy. For the sake of requesting the kids behave in a considerate civilized fashion.

Being courteous and mannerly means you will probably be thinking about others as well as yourself, when dealing with the public. Yes? I think we may have stumbled on something. It's the "I am the center of the universe" thing. The ME generation(s). I hope it will change to the US generation.

[Medusa]

Hey, I think you all have good thoughts on manners, tradition and courtesy. I enjoy adult like discussions like this!

I would never have made my niece call me Aunt Sallyanne.....even though she refers to me as her Aunt. I am sure that upsets my Mom - since she (my Mom) made me call my Aunts....Aunt whatever. See. This is how it has happened. I love my Aunts but could never call them by their first name, but then won't allow my niece to call me Aunt. Go figure! I mean that I demanded my niece to NOT call me Aunt, not just suggested!

Yesterday, while at work, a little girl stopped at the counter/register, waited until I noticed her, and VERY sweetly, asked if she could use our bathroom/toilet. It is the store policy to refuse such use. I couldn't believe how polite and sweet she was, and hey, guess what? her Mom was just as sweet. One may guess that I agreed to break the rules and walked her back to the toilet. She was maybe 6 at the most. She did not look as though she came from the upper crust of society - by any means. She was sweet, polite, easy to understand and direct. She thanked me several times as did her Mom. I, in turn treated her like royalty. She received a couple of free items and I gave her a Canadian dollar I had in my pocket. I told her how polite she was and how much fun it was to have her in the store........
On the other hand, at other times, there are kids that come in the door and destroy the place, while their Mom and/or Dad is doing their own thing. It drives me crazy. For the sake of requesting the kids behave in a considerate civilized fashion.

Being courteous and mannerly means you will probably be thinking about others as well as yourself, when dealing with the public. Yes? I think we may have stumbled on something. It's the "I am the center of the universe" thing. The ME generation(s). I hope it will change to the US generation.

You've made an excellent point. Children usually mimic their parents' behavior. In this instance, Mom was sweet and so was her daughter as a result. Learned behavior. You were also willing to help her because she was so polite. Courtesy makes us want to respond in kind. Love it!

[Randi]

When I read your post, it reminded me of this one:
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthre...orm#post699439

Mary, I grew up in the 50ties too, and my background sounds similar to yours. My father was a bricklayer and my mom a housewife. I really enjoyed coming home from school to a cup of tea and a cheese sandwich. Then homework, and down to play. Not all children were lucky to have one of their parents home all day.

The world has changed, I like some changes, others not.

In school, we had to line up in two rows every morning and follow the teacher to our classroom, girls in their own classroom and boys in theirs. The playground was divided up by a thick white line, so girls and boys didn't mix. We accepted it as normal, even though, today, I can’t see it was an advantage for anyone, it probably made all of us more shy to the opposite sex.

It was quite normal to speak to grown-ups in a polite manner and adressing them Mr. or Mrs. Also to say thank you, when someone gave you something. However, some things were quite silly - like curtsy and bowing, I mean, it wasn’t exactly the Queen we stood in front of.

One time, my mom took me along to one her friends, and I did or said something wrong, I don’t think I was even aware of it. The friend “forced” me to apologize and I felt SO humiliated - I was hardly old enough to even pronounce the word she wanted me to say. I remembered this for a long time, and never wanted to go there again. So a completely wrong way of tackling it!

I believe all children are born with a positive outlook on things and a healthy curiousity, but they soon get spoiled, as some parents seem too busy with other things, to care much about how “well behaved” their children are (and I mean this in the good sense of the word) and this will backfire later on. Most children will behave like their parents.

Simple things like learning to queue up when waiting for a bus, let other people speak without interupting, and appreciate what you have, instead of wanting more, more, more, would be nice.

There’s nothing wrong with a good self esteem, but like some of you say, a lot of young kids really DO believe they are the center of the Universe, and it can be pretty tiring to be around these kids for long. It would be nice if they thought about others too - but then, some of them do.

Also this thing with fame... some will do anything to get their 15 min. on TV and make complete fools of themselves. I never understood that.

[caseysmom]

My daughter has a friend that moved her from the south, I am always called Mam by her, its actually quit refreshing.