Courtesy, manners and tradition

[Medusa]

Hmm...interesting, for certain, but, I don't agree with a large portion of your old world ways. (Which I find odd, as I seem to find myself agreeing with you by and large).


I am 43, and was brought up in a white collar, middle income home. I have 7 siblings, and all of us, I believe, are well mannered, educated and respectful of others, be it the person or the property. I know my mom says she always made sure we acted a certain way while out in soceity, and that kids behaved differently back in the day, I think, she, like all of us, suffers from selective memory.

Key example- I have a 4 year old...and when people ask me what he was doing at a particular stage/age in time, I simply cannot recall. I can believe what I think he was doing, but, really, if I consult my notes, or sit down and really think about it, I am often wrong with what I think. My friends seem to be the same way. I think people remembering back in time- 30, 40 years, might not be remembering things with such clarity as they think.

I don't think kids have changed all that much. I do think the activities of the adults have changed. For instance, 30 years ago, dining out regularly was not an every day occurance. I can bet that taking a child to a restaurant the very first time is different than taking the child to a restaurant for the 20th time. The newness, and as a consequence, the anxieties of a new place, have gone away. Children often act differently when they are familiar with a place.

I think there is more 'inclusion' of the family in today's environment. Go back 30, 40 years, and dad worked all day, came home ate dinner and watched some TV/radio, and that was often 'family time'. Today, the family might go to a movie, a party, the mall, etc. More exposure to the outside world increases the moments for ANY behaviour to be examined, let alone bad behavior.

Many parents lives are so stressed, hustling from here to there, maybe not so much of a structure tied to nap time, bed times, consistency, sleeping in the car, etc. That 'stress' and lack of consistency travels down. I usually see 'bad' behaviour at nap times, or at bedtimes/down times. Is it the child's fault that the parent is still trying to fit in one more errand when according to the child's body clock, he should have been fed and down for a nap 1 hour ago?

Are there bratty children and irresponsible parents in the world today? Of course. Are there parents that maybe shouldn't be parents, but, are faced with the responsibility of raising a child when they would rather be doing anything else? Sure. Are some parents doing the best that they can do, but for the fact they didn't have parents that guided them (which would be those parents close in age to Medusa ), would be doing it differently? Sure.


Most of us know, as Richard would say, adults that are AHs. Rude, inconsiderate, nasty, ignorant people. I guess we could say that is cause of the way they were raised, right? But, again, those people would have been raised 20, 30, 40 years ago, with those standards Medusa espouses.


Frankly, I think children are the same, but, our exposure to them is increased. 30 years ago, if Frankie was a big brat, Frankie's mom probably didn't take him anywhere, due to the public scorn/humiliation the family would face. Today? I don't think people care so much what Mrs. Smith down the street thinks of their family.

Raising a child is a process to me. My thoughts on motherhood 10 years ago is no where near where it is today. My thoughts on what I would do has changed in the last 4 years. Things I did with Jonah at 2 are different than the way I handle things today. I learn and I grow as my son develops. I looked for the instruction manual, but, I think it got lost in a dirty diaper. My son is no where near perfect, and I am guilty of running another errand, stopping for a quick bite when everything else dictates we should be home, losing my temper/patience when there isn't any reason other than my own internal frustrations with the situation/myself.

I wouldn't want to raise Jonah to bow to someone, I don't think calling someone Mr/Mrs instills respect, I don't believe in corporal punishment, and would never take an object to my son in discipline, I encourage Jonah to express his desires freely (doesn't mean I give in to him), and most of all, I tell him daily that I love him more than anything, and that he has so much good inside of him. My job is to help him reach his potential, through ways that I think are worthy.


And for those days when I am pulling my hair out, and he is ready to do the same, I remember what my mom says, "and this, too, shall pass".

One of my favorite sayings.

[Medusa]

Oh I'm not saying that I always agreed w/the old word ways. LOL I was simply pointing out the differences between then and now. Believe me, the curtsy, etc. got to be tedious.

I agree w/you to a point but this isn't exactly what I meant when I referred to children. Toddlers are always testing their boundaries and they certainly can't be expected to behave as adults. I was referring more to school age children who, by the time they're old enough to sit still in a classroom, should have learned that there is a certain decorum that's expected of them.

This is an example of the point that I was trying to make and, apparently, have failed at it. I was raised to discuss w/out name calling because it's abusive. Words can harm and words can heal. I don't agree that adults are AHs and it isn't the adults that I was talking about. It's the standards with which we were brought up as opposed to how children are brought up today that I was hoping to discuss. We need only to watch the news or read the paper to see that there are some bad people out there but, again, this isn't what I was talking about.

Again, I agree w/you regarding bowing, etc. I wouldn't have wanted my son to bow to anyone either. However, I did teach him to call people by Mr./Mrs./Miss because familiarity breeds contempt, IMO. My neighbor's son still calls me Mrs. L and when I told him he may call me Mary his mother said "No, he may not. It's disrespectful." (Her words, not mine.)

[Cataholic]

Oh I'm not saying that I always agreed w/the old word ways. LOL I was simply pointing out the differences between then and now. Believe me, the curtsy, etc. got to be tedious.

I agree w/you to a point but this isn't exactly what I meant when I referred to children. Toddlers are always testing their boundaries and they certainly can't be expected to behave as adults. I was referring more to school age children who, by the time they're old enough to sit still in a classroom, should have learned that there is a certain decorum that's expected of them.

This is an example of the point that I was trying to make and, apparently, have failed at it. I was raised to discuss w/out name calling because it's abusive. Words can harm and words can heal. I don't agree that adults are AHs and it isn't the adults that I was talking about. It's the standards with which we were brought up as opposed to how children are brought up today that I was hoping to discuss. We need only to watch the news or read the paper to see that there are some bad people out there but, again, this isn't what I was talking about.

Again, I agree w/you regarding bowing, etc. I wouldn't have wanted my son to bow to anyone either. However, I did teach him to call people by Mr./Mrs./Miss because familiarity breeds contempt, IMO. My neighbor's son still calls me Mrs. L and when I told him he may call me Mary his mother said "No, he may not. It's disrespectful." (Her words, not mine.)

I wasn't saying adults are AHs. I was saying we all KNOW adults that are AHs (or whatever word you affix) and that these people are long past the develpmental age, be it toddler or school aged children, and these adults SHOULD know how to act. My point, which apparently I did not express very well, was that even adults raised in the golden age still act inappropriately, and it wasn't just the younger generation, bringing up the youngest generation, with poor manners. It goes with my theory that children haven't changed.

As to what someone would call someone, if I specifcally asked someone to call me by my first name, and that person continued to call me something else, to me, that is disrespectful. We all should be permitted to be addressed as we see fit. Being part of the 'inner circle' extols a certain bond, a certain closeness, which to me, breeds respect. Strangers call me by my last name. Friends and family call me by my first. But, I have never been one all hung up on the Ms/Mr. thing. I get and give respect by my manners and my actions, not by what I call someone. I am sure we all have been called down by the use of formal addresses, and certainly there isn't anything respectful about that.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Maybe this is not so much of a generational difference as a personal opinion on manners. My mom is about the same age as you- she is turning 60 this year, and I know she feels completely differently on the subject. She attended Catholic school, so of course she had to wear a skirt and blouse to school everyday as her uniform. Even in the dead of winter when there was no doubt an extreme risk of frost bite, which seems to border on the ridiculous (She said that she and her sister would wear pants underneath and change at school. At least her parents had a brain!). Anyway, I'm just pointing out that she came from a similar situation in this respect...I really don't see how wearing a dress makes anyone more polite.

I've seen a lot of home movies from her childhood, and aside from all the waving (obviously the movies don't have any sound) she and her siblings seemed pretty similar to kids now. Smiling, goofing off, that sort of thing. I honestly don't think kids are really any different than the kids of 50 years ago.

In fact, I work in an elementary school and I see normal kids everyday. Yes, there are some bratty kids who could stand to learn some people skills, but by and large the vast majority of children are well behaved, polite, and nice to be around most of the time. Actually, the reason I chose to work with children is that I find them more pleasant to be around the most adults...so I guess I don't understand where you are getting your impressions.

Yes, times have changed but I still think kids (and adults) are basically the same. As I'm sure happened in the past, people will find someone or something to blame- rock 'n roll (my mom was allowed to listen to the Beatles, something they didn't approve of at her school), tv, violent video games, or bad parents.

[Medusa]

[QUOTE=Pembroke_Corgi;2113586I really don't see how wearing a dress makes anyone more polite.[/QUOTE]

It didn't make them more polite. The title of the thread also has the word "tradition" in it. It was traditional for girls to wear skirts to school, even in the dead of winter. We had leggings that we wore under our dresses and removed them at school. I didn't mind wearing dresses; I rather liked it actually but then, I was/am a girlie girl. This also wasn't meant to be a discussion about bratty kids vs. normal kids, whatever that means. I don't think I referred to kids as being brats in my comments. As I've stated previously, I don't indulge in name calling. I was referring to the manners, customs and traditions of the 50's vs. those of today.

[Cataholic]

Medusa,
I went back and read the OP, and really, while you might not use the word, "bratty" you really do reference the ways kids behave today.
As is often the case, the OP is just the OP, things take on a life of their own after that.

[Medusa]

Medusa,
I went back and read the OP, and really, while you might not use the word, "bratty" you really do reference the ways kids behave today.
As is often the case, the OP is just the OP, things take on a life of their own after that.

But I did make my point w/out name calling, did I not? If I was to reprimand a child, I would never refer to him/her as a brat but I would definitely make it clear how I felt about their behavior. I feel that I need to reiterate that I don't feel that today's generation is a lost cause and I also don't feel that all kids are ill mannered. As I said, we usually only hear of the bad examples. However, I still think that common courtesy and manners have taken a back seat to an "I'm the center of the Universe" mentality.

[Cataholic]

Yes, you made a point without name calling. The picture painted was still the same, but, no reference to the word brat was contained in your post. That seems really, really significant to you, so, I want to make sure I state that clearly.

It really ties right in to my point about addressing someone by the title, and how it doesn't really convey anything different to me. It is just a word, the respect is behind the action, not the term. Just like your description of the child's behavior was left without a 'label', but, the meaning (brat) was still inferred.

[Medusa]

Yes, you made a point without name calling. The picture painted was still the same, but, no reference to the word brat was contained in your post. That seems really, really significant to you, so, I want to make sure I state that clearly.

It really ties right in to my point about addressing someone by the title, and how it doesn't really convey anything different to me. It is just a word, the respect is behind the action, not the term. Just like your description of the child's behavior was left without a 'label', but, the meaning (brat) was still inferred.

Mr./Mrs./Miss is a title and denotes respectfulness. Brat is a label. Besides, what child are you referring to? I don't recall speaking of one particular child or one particular behavior. I think perhaps I should bone up on my writing and communication skills because I did not want to address children and whether they have or have not changed through the years and I especially was not referring to toddlers. A cranky baby who needs a nap isn't in the same category as a teenager who purposely is disrespectful to adults and even to other teenagers and who should have some manners by that age. I wanted to discuss manners, courtesy and customs. Maybe the word "tradition" was the wrong choice. Customs is a better word. I simply wish to compare how not so few of us were brought up in the 50's as compared to today. I didn't state that one way was better than the other except that I consider the old ways preferable for me, not better.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am a volunteer at a local historic site. We give tours for over 40,000 fourth graders each year.

I can tell you MANY things about the behavior of children -- when the parents are not around.

One thing a veteran volunteer told me early on -- is to introduce myself by title Mrs./Ms/Miss not as I had been as Sara.

It has made a tremendous difference. Children know that someone with a title "Ms/Mr." is an authority -- by first name is a friend. When you are trying to control and educate 20 - 25 ten year olds you NEED the authority. (I have had to add a request that the chaperon parents turn off their cell phones to my intro.)

The behavior of the group has nothing to do with economic group - ethnic group - public or private school. Very few of us like to do home school groups though.

Whether it is a good group has to do with the quality of the parents. If they are involved (NOT on the cell phone...NOT disappearing or chatting loudly in the back of the group) and do their job - corraling wanderers - correcting behavior -- it will be a great tour. We will have fun and the kids will learn.

For the most part I enjoy doing the tours but I must say...I do see the "I am the Center of the Universe"/"My Child is the Center of the Universe" more than might be healthy!

[JenBKR]

You make a good point Sara - if you assert yourself as an authority figure from the beginning, even with something as minute as how you are addressed, I think that kids will respond to that. I volunteer at church with the kids two days a week, and I am known as "Miss Jen." It's respectful but familiar at the same time, and *most* of the kids behave well.

Sometimes it's actually the parents who you want to correct. I can imagine you see it all the time. Just out of curiousity, why don't any of you like doing the homeschooled groups?

[Cataholic]

At Jonah's preschool- which is largely a double family unit (except me, he he he), largely caucasian, and more affluent than not (excluding me again, he he) there is a woman that I see nearly 3 times a week. She is dropping off her preschool, and schlepping her infant on her hip (the only term to use is schlep), with her cell phone to her ear. Every time I see her, the phone is there. At first, I thought she had a disesase in which the phone was permanently attached. Later, I realized this wasn't physically possible.

I can see your point, ES, with the title. Those kids ARE strangers to you, and there is no formation of a relationship. My son sees our neighbors all the time (well, in the warm weather). The couple on my one side are probably 10-15 years older than me. They have two grandchildren. I don't remember ever us talking about it, but, everyone is on a first name basis. My other neighbors are generlly younger than me, so, it doesn't seem as significant to them. BUT, if someone asked my son to address them as Mr./Ms...of course, I would honor that. Excluding family, all of my friend's children call me J. ( J, as a joke, will call me 'Mother', which sounds so funny and formal. He knows it makes me laugh, and does it just to get a laugh out of me. )

The Mr/Ms thing is just one of many things I am opinionated on.

[pomtzu]

It didn't make them more polite. The title of the thread also has the word "tradition" in it. I was referring to the manners, customs and traditions of the 50's vs. those of today.

And that was my understanding of the point you were making!

People tend to read between the lines, or have selective reading, and in doing so, get defensive. I've seen a lot of this in other threads also. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and who can say who is right and who is wrong. IMO, there is no right or wrong, just folks voicing their views, and they should not be criticized for it.
And again, I feel that is just plain, old, common courtesy, and we as adults, should practice it.

[Cataholic]

And that was my understanding of the point you were making!

People tend to read between the lines, or have selective reading, and in doing so, get defensive. I've seen a lot of this in other threads also. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and who can say who is right and who is wrong. IMO, there is no right or wrong, just folks voicing their views, and they should not be criticized for it.
And again, I feel that is just plain, old, common courtesy, and we as adults, should practice it.

While I do realize this will come across as antagonistic, and I truly do not mean it this way, can you see how your above assertions can be read as critical? You indicate that people read between the lines (not a "good" trait") and have selective reading (again, not one we typically use as praise), and than say that all you (and I think you are putting Medusa in there, too) are doing is voicing your opinions.

I will only speak for myself, I simply do not feel the same way you do. I don't think I am right or you are wrong. I simply do not feel the same way. I don't think I am critizing you, just debating your points.

[pomtzu]

While I do realize this will come across as antagonistic, and I truly do not mean it this way, can you see how your above assertions can be read as critical? You indicate that people read between the lines (not a "good" trait") and have selective reading (again, not one we typically use as praise), and than say that all you (and I think you are putting Medusa in there, too) are doing is voicing your opinions.

I will only speak for myself, I simply do not feel the same way you do. I don't think I am right or you are wrong. I simply do not feel the same way. I don't think I am critizing you, just debating your points.

I see your point, but as I said - it's my opinion, and I am not taking offense to your statement! And I would never implicate anyone else in a statement of my beliefs. Sorry if it came across that way.