Dog Whisperer this past Saturday

[Emma<3Beth]

Hi lizbud you seem to share my opinion.

I guess it all depends on the dog and the person.

Giselle i like you dog seems like a sweety I was referrring to the agressive dogs that want to kill things our Dane cross(RIP) wanted to kill and i had to be firm good snap of the chain and she settled.

[Giselle]

Giselle i like you dog seems like a sweety I was referrring to the agressive dogs that want to kill things our Dane cross(RIP) wanted to kill and i had to be firm good snap of the chain and she settled.

Like I said, Ivy is extremely reactive. She has attacked and, if put in a 'bad' situation, she would attack again. Would she kill? Probably. If I hadn't been there to pull her off our classmate's dog, I'm sure she would have inflicted serious damage. Ivy's aggression is not normal, and I treat her aggression as a psychological and medical problem. It is most certainly NOT a dominance problem, as CM so adamantly asserts with his aggressive and reactive clients.

[Emma<3Beth]

she submitted to you right.

Yes not everything is realted to a dog being dominate. But You did use the same sort of principal with your dog.

when she reacted badly you stayed "Calm and assetive" and placed her in a submissive position on the floor till she settled.

it is the same thing CM(like the abbreviation) does with the dogs he works with. You did seem less forcefull i will admit.

[newwoman1959]

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion about the Dog Whisperer. I happen to be one who likes him and I actually read his book myself. He states repeatedly in his book that very few dogs are naturally dominant and those are the ones he ends up working with. Most dogs are perfectly happy being submissive and most of us are lucky to own that type of dog.

I recently used some of Caesar's techniques on an agressive dog in my neighborhood. The dog, a Shar Pei mix, was aggressing on an 8-year-old girl. I stood it down with dominant body language (I'm not a particularly large woman) and it backed down. I know I was lucky this worked, but I couldn't let the dog go after a child. Anyhow, I give Caesar and his techniques the credit for the good outcome of this incident. This dog was later put down by animal control because she attacked other people in the neighborhood.

I absolutely DO NOT believe in using shock collars or any other painful methods to train dogs, but I know for a fact that some stronger-willed dogs so need for their owners to show dominance and strength in dealing with them. For me, it's my little 14-pound terrier mix. She's a sweetie and very smart, but likes things her way. Sometimes she has to be corrected, especially when she growls or bears her teeth at a person.

I guess I just thing some people should have a more open mind.

[Giselle]

When Cesar's methods "work", they do so because they are punishments and punishments suppress behaviors. Cesar seeks to mask the offending behavior; true animal behaviorists seek to eliminate the cause of the offending behavior. That pretty much sums up the argument.

There was an excellent summation of the difference between CM and +R people regarding teaching a dog to ignore an object.

Option 1: Give the dog's leash a snap or other aversive everytime it sniffs the inappropriate object.
Option 2: Teach the dog "leave it" using +R methods.

So what it really boils down to is...would you rather teach your dog by setting him up to fail or setting him up to succeed?

[MonicanHonda]

CM's techniques work for my dog. I stand behind him 100%. To each their own I suppose.

[Kewll0ser]

The ONLY method I use is to make sure you are always calm around your dog or when handling a behavior. When I had a food agressive Lhasa Apso that used to jump up on my bed, I would grab him by the collar and simply guide him off. When he was able to sit there for about a minute or two, I would positively reinforce his behavior.

One day, he jumped up on my bed again and I grabbed him by the collar and pulled him off. He bit me right in the hand and the leg. I was scared when I pulled him off because he was already growling and baring teeth. I realized that energy is key, but positive reinforcement is the best.

Same thing when I taught my Butterscotch to sit. Everytime she sat down I gave her a treat and said sit along with it. I also make her sit when shes going to get food or get a new toy. Now I don't even have to tell her to sit, and I owe it to positive reinforcement.

I agree with Giselle 100 %. No dog should be punished for something they know absolutely nothing about. Does a dog know chewing is bad ? Does a dog know that it shouldn't bite if scared? No. But if you slowly remove the fear or other powerful emotion slowly by introducing the item and rewarding any positive behavior, then the dog will learn to associate the item with a treat, or praise etc.

One episode that really pisses me off is when there was this pitty named Emily that was dog agressive and Cesar forced the dog to be submissive . He literally grabbed the dog by her neck, shoved her into the grass and had the dog panting and basically asphyxiated (SP?) the dog. I was horrified that the owners could just stand there and let Cesar choke their dog.

[lizbud]

Like I said, Ivy is extremely reactive. She has attacked and, if put in a 'bad' situation, she would attack again. Would she kill? Probably. If I hadn't been there to pull her off our classmate's dog, I'm sure she would have inflicted serious damage. Ivy's aggression is not normal, and I treat her aggression as a psychological and medical problem. It is most certainly NOT a dominance problem, as CM so adamantly asserts with his aggressive and reactive clients.

I think you are doing your dog no favors by not training her out of
the negative behaviour. No offense, but do you feel it's safe to have Ivy around other dogs?

[Giselle]

Lizbud, you misunderstood me big time

I DO train Ivy out of her negative behaviors. But here's the thing: I train her using positive reinforcement, coping mechanisms, and teaching self-control. I train her using desensitization and counter conditioning. I train her with the clicker. I use Premack's principle. I use come-and-go training. I train *holistically*. I train Ivy, ultimately, to teach her to cope with her emotions and to view the trigger as a neutral object. To ALL aggressive dogs, they attach a fierce emotion to the trigger, whether it be excitement or fear. If you really want to get rid of that explosion of aggression, you have to remove the emotion that is attached to the trigger. You have to counter condition it. THAT is how I work with Ivy, and I refuse to use extreme force on her (i.e. the CM-endorsed alpha rolls and assertive touches).

she submitted to you right.

Yes not everything is realted to a dog being dominate. But You did use the same sort of principal with your dog.

when she reacted badly you stayed "Calm and assetive" and placed her in a submissive position on the floor till she settled.

it is the same thing CM(like the abbreviation) does with the dogs he works with. You did seem less forcefull i will admit.

Au contraire, again. Yes, she submitted to me. That is my point. She submitted to me WITHOUT the use of force or subversion. She submits to me because it's natural, because I've earned her respect as a leader. HOWEVER, she also has a natural tendency to react/aggress. According to CM's methodology, virtually all bad behavior is linked directly to inadequate leadership. So, my question to him and all who subscribe to this methodology, is: How is it possible that a very submissive dog is simultaneously extremely reactive towards other dogs? Does this case not completely refute CM's methodology?

It is not the same principle as CM. As you can see, she was not reacting at the moment. I was merely showing you extent of our relationship - clearly, she is submissive to me. BUT she STILL has natural tendencies to react. I was using that video to counter CM's fundamental training beliefs.

ETA: By the way, if I'm coming off a little "harsh", I really don't mean to. Aggression and reactivity are truly my passion of passions. I adore this topic and it is incredibly personal, so, in the midst of that passion, I can get a little virulent. I really don't mean to :/

[lizbud]

I am so glad you didn't get all bent out of shape over my questions.
I truly want to understand the training method you use. It does seem
to me you are only reacting to Ivy's bad choices, so she really is not the
submissive one, you are. Right?


The Premack Principal is a type/method of human conditioning.

[Emma<3Beth]

Ahh the relms of dog psychology certainly a hot topic. I get where you are coming from Giselle. Hey whatever works for you and doesn't hurt the dog i am all for it.

[Giselle]

It does seem
to me you are only reacting to Ivy's bad choices, so she really is not the
submissive one, you are. Right?

No, I disagree. What you're describing is a human's ideal of "dog dominance". Think of it like this: Dominance is used to DIFFUSE tension and KEEP order. Dominance, in its most natural form, is meant to keep inventory of resources - to prevent scuffles, to ensure that the members of the pack get their share. That is how one should view dominance. But when you try to extrapolate and say a dog is "dominant" because she's trying to manipulate the situation by making me react to her bad choices? That's taking the dominance concept a little too far.

She is not voluntarily choosing to react "badly" to make me submit to her, to make me react to her. Here's where I think CM followers and +R followers dissociate: Aggression/Reacting is NOT a completely voluntary choice. When dogs aggress and react, they are acting so due to knee-jerk, primal reflexes, usually fear, excitement, etc. They have attached a strong emotion to that trigger and, when they see the trigger, they are working with their instinct. They have literally entered another state of mind. If you've worked with a lot of aggressive dogs, you'll see their eyes harden, their muscles tense and quiver, their jaw muscles tighten, their focus on you severely decreases, etc. These are not voluntary actions. They are the result of a strong emotions tied to the trigger. So to rid the dog of the aggression, you have to change the base of those emotions. Essentially, you have to neutralize the trigger, which is most attainable through DS and CC (desensitize and counter condition).

The Premack Principal is a type/method of human conditioning.

All conditioning holds true for all animals, including humans.
Premack's Principle is a psychological principle. It was derived from a study of monkeys, not humans. In fact, a large majority of psychology's most major, fundamental principles have been derived from animal research, including Pavlov, Skinner, Harlow, etc. How can one claim that those principles are only "human conditioning" methods? If you've done "come-and-go" training with a dog, that's Premack's Principle right there.

[lizbud]

I am still completely in the dark over the terminology you use.

Could you give me the name of some Dog Trainers that use the Premack
principals or how "come and go" training works? Any reference tools would
be a big help. Thanks.