Dog Whisperer this past Saturday

[Emma<3Beth]

sorry if i cause an up roar but ummm.... I love the dog whisperer .

The things he does with dogs are amazing and i use what he says with my own dogs. I NEVER hit my dogs but i will touch the dog to snap it out of the bad behaviour.
A lot of dogs he works with are agressive and he has to be firm. If a Pit or Rottie want to get something you have to be firm.


I watched a episode a few night back and he did nothing but praise the dog. I dont always see the dominace thing but alot of it makes sense to me.

But every person to there own i guess.

it is correct that tv does distort(sp*) alot of things and it probably does take a lot longer to train a dog than it is shown.

[shepgirl]

He's not my type of trainer. I just don't like the cold look in his eyes and I find he has no empathy for any dog he works with.
He seems to be on some kind of ego trip , he doesn't really assert himself, he dominates and does not do it kindly.
Some like him , some don't.

[Giselle]

I absolutely 110% disagree when people justify utilizing the extreme forms of the "dominance theory" (i.e. alpha rolls and "assertive touches", i.e. forcefully hitting the dog) because the dog is reactive or aggressive.

Cesar is "amazing" because he uses positive punishment. Punishment has instant results because it suppresses behavior. Dog growls. Hit. Dog growls again. Alpha roll. Dog stops growling. Is that amazing? Or is that disturbing? What is amazing to me is that people still believe in this stuff, when modern psychology and decades of research and behavioral modification have taught us that there are far more effective methods of long term rehabilitation of reactive and aggressive dogs.

A lot of dogs he works with are agressive and he has to be firm. If a Pit or Rottie want to get something you have to be firm.

As you can see from my siggie, I have a Doberman girl. She is strong, she is willful, she is energetic, and high drive/high pain tolerance. Surprise, surprise, she is also extremely reactive. I do not and never will "dominate" her in the way that Cesar advocates. The basis of Cesar's attitude towards aggressive dogs is that they're trying to assume the alpha role. In other words, they're trying to assert their dominance over the human by taking control of the environment and resources. Uh huh. Right. So, why does my 100%-positive-reinforcement-trained dog do this by herself?

That, folks, is a completely UNtrained behavior. I have NEVER taught Ivy this behavior; it's completely natural. So, tell me again, why does my dog react? Because she's dominant? Really??? Am I really supposed to believe that?

Bottom line: Not all "bad" behaviors stem from inadequate leadership, as Cesar would like us to believe. THAT is my major gripe with him.

[lizbud]

Well, to each his own I guess, but I admire Cesar's remarkable talent
with all dogs he meets. I certainly do not see cruel or uneven treatment
with any dog he's working with & no fear in any of the dogs.IMO.

[Emma<3Beth]

Hi lizbud you seem to share my opinion.

I guess it all depends on the dog and the person.

Giselle i like you dog seems like a sweety I was referrring to the agressive dogs that want to kill things our Dane cross(RIP) wanted to kill and i had to be firm good snap of the chain and she settled.

[Giselle]

Giselle i like you dog seems like a sweety I was referrring to the agressive dogs that want to kill things our Dane cross(RIP) wanted to kill and i had to be firm good snap of the chain and she settled.

Like I said, Ivy is extremely reactive. She has attacked and, if put in a 'bad' situation, she would attack again. Would she kill? Probably. If I hadn't been there to pull her off our classmate's dog, I'm sure she would have inflicted serious damage. Ivy's aggression is not normal, and I treat her aggression as a psychological and medical problem. It is most certainly NOT a dominance problem, as CM so adamantly asserts with his aggressive and reactive clients.

[Emma<3Beth]

she submitted to you right.

Yes not everything is realted to a dog being dominate. But You did use the same sort of principal with your dog.

when she reacted badly you stayed "Calm and assetive" and placed her in a submissive position on the floor till she settled.

it is the same thing CM(like the abbreviation) does with the dogs he works with. You did seem less forcefull i will admit.

[newwoman1959]

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion about the Dog Whisperer. I happen to be one who likes him and I actually read his book myself. He states repeatedly in his book that very few dogs are naturally dominant and those are the ones he ends up working with. Most dogs are perfectly happy being submissive and most of us are lucky to own that type of dog.

I recently used some of Caesar's techniques on an agressive dog in my neighborhood. The dog, a Shar Pei mix, was aggressing on an 8-year-old girl. I stood it down with dominant body language (I'm not a particularly large woman) and it backed down. I know I was lucky this worked, but I couldn't let the dog go after a child. Anyhow, I give Caesar and his techniques the credit for the good outcome of this incident. This dog was later put down by animal control because she attacked other people in the neighborhood.

I absolutely DO NOT believe in using shock collars or any other painful methods to train dogs, but I know for a fact that some stronger-willed dogs so need for their owners to show dominance and strength in dealing with them. For me, it's my little 14-pound terrier mix. She's a sweetie and very smart, but likes things her way. Sometimes she has to be corrected, especially when she growls or bears her teeth at a person.

I guess I just thing some people should have a more open mind.

[lizbud]

Like I said, Ivy is extremely reactive. She has attacked and, if put in a 'bad' situation, she would attack again. Would she kill? Probably. If I hadn't been there to pull her off our classmate's dog, I'm sure she would have inflicted serious damage. Ivy's aggression is not normal, and I treat her aggression as a psychological and medical problem. It is most certainly NOT a dominance problem, as CM so adamantly asserts with his aggressive and reactive clients.

I think you are doing your dog no favors by not training her out of
the negative behaviour. No offense, but do you feel it's safe to have Ivy around other dogs?

[Giselle]

Lizbud, you misunderstood me big time

I DO train Ivy out of her negative behaviors. But here's the thing: I train her using positive reinforcement, coping mechanisms, and teaching self-control. I train her using desensitization and counter conditioning. I train her with the clicker. I use Premack's principle. I use come-and-go training. I train *holistically*. I train Ivy, ultimately, to teach her to cope with her emotions and to view the trigger as a neutral object. To ALL aggressive dogs, they attach a fierce emotion to the trigger, whether it be excitement or fear. If you really want to get rid of that explosion of aggression, you have to remove the emotion that is attached to the trigger. You have to counter condition it. THAT is how I work with Ivy, and I refuse to use extreme force on her (i.e. the CM-endorsed alpha rolls and assertive touches).

she submitted to you right.

Yes not everything is realted to a dog being dominate. But You did use the same sort of principal with your dog.

when she reacted badly you stayed "Calm and assetive" and placed her in a submissive position on the floor till she settled.

it is the same thing CM(like the abbreviation) does with the dogs he works with. You did seem less forcefull i will admit.

Au contraire, again. Yes, she submitted to me. That is my point. She submitted to me WITHOUT the use of force or subversion. She submits to me because it's natural, because I've earned her respect as a leader. HOWEVER, she also has a natural tendency to react/aggress. According to CM's methodology, virtually all bad behavior is linked directly to inadequate leadership. So, my question to him and all who subscribe to this methodology, is: How is it possible that a very submissive dog is simultaneously extremely reactive towards other dogs? Does this case not completely refute CM's methodology?

It is not the same principle as CM. As you can see, she was not reacting at the moment. I was merely showing you extent of our relationship - clearly, she is submissive to me. BUT she STILL has natural tendencies to react. I was using that video to counter CM's fundamental training beliefs.

ETA: By the way, if I'm coming off a little "harsh", I really don't mean to. Aggression and reactivity are truly my passion of passions. I adore this topic and it is incredibly personal, so, in the midst of that passion, I can get a little virulent. I really don't mean to :/

[bckrazy]

Well, to each his own I guess, but I admire Cesar's remarkable talent
with all dogs he meets. I certainly do not see cruel or uneven treatment
with any dog he's working with & no fear in any of the dogs.IMO.

Please watch the last few minutes of this video and tell me that this dog is not fearful. And please tell me that it isn't cruel to hang a dog by a choker until they cannot breathe. Honestly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjLDQmgYd-s

Oh, it makes perfect sense now... FORCE the dog to ENJOY being in the house by strangling him into exhaustion.

[MonicanHonda]

Oops... didn't mean to post on this one!!

[ChrisH]

Please watch the last few minutes of this video and tell me that this dog is not fearful. And please tell me that it isn't cruel to hang a dog by a choker until they cannot breathe. Honestly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjLDQmgYd-s

Oh, it makes perfect sense now... FORCE the dog to ENJOY being in the house by strangling him into exhaustion.

It is not my intention to be rude or confrontational, just curious. Given the fact that the owner was an experience one who couldn't solve it, plus had tried two other trainers who also couldn't, may I ask please how you would have solved the problem?

[bckrazy]

It is not my intention to be rude or confrontational, just curious. Given the fact that the owner was an experience one who couldn't solve it, plus had tried two other trainers who also couldn't, may I ask please how you would have solved the problem?

No offense taken.

I am definitely not a behaviorist, by ANY means... but for starters, "experience" does not always equate to well-informed. The owner described other methods that trainers had used on Jonbee, all of which were based around dominance theory, just like Cesar. He described how Jonbee had been alpha rolled before. I definitely feel that the owners' hearts are in the right place, but sadly, they fed into the out-dated, disproven methods that have been given the shiney, hip new name of "canine psychology". Emphasis on "psycho".

First of all, I would stop forcing the dog inside. They described the dog as one who loved affection when he was outside, and who was perfectly well adjusted outside, and who had been found living on the streets - the dog is clearly completely fearful and unsure about being inside of a house. Common sense suggests that hanging a dog on a choker and pinning him down until he pees all over himself and collapses is doing nothing to make being inside of a house a positive experience for that dog. Personally, I would start incredibly slow, leaving a door open for him to CHOOSE to explore inside, giving him tons of praise and rewards for going anywhere near the house and progressing very slowly. The key is conditioning the dog to make positive associations with the desired behavior/object - in this case, being in the house. House = food. House = praise. House = safe, calm, positive, happy. Maybe he would never feel completely comfortable in a house, being that I'm sure he had never seen the inside of one before he was rescued... but at least he wouldn't be forced, or hung, or pushed to the point of attacking. I would MUCH rather have a happy outside dog who spent short training periods in the house than one who was so afraid and traumatized by being in the house that they lashed out and/or shut down completely.

This is a really good link, that touches on Jonbee... actually, it's written by my Obedience trainer: http://4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

[ChrisH]

A very reasoned reply, thank you, thanks for the link too, very interesting.

I am not anti Cesar by any means but I have to say that I do prefer our own Victoria Stilwell and Jan Fennell's training methods to his, which appear to work just as well.