Cruel & Outdated Training Methods

[lizbud]

Battle wounds are far different than regular ER wounds. Bullets don't just put two little holes in a body that can be mended with a torn t-shirt. That's Hollywood BS.


A ballistic gel model will give you an idea as to what a bullet does, but does nothing to answer the question of the amount of treatment needed to keep a victim alive. I guess it's more important to keep pigs alive that it is to think about a soldier's welfare!

I don't know about LA, but Indy has had 13 shooting victims in the last 2 weeks time. ( I haven't checked yet today) Bad guys also use automatic
weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.

It's also disingenuous to suggest this is a Either/Or question. We can treat and save more soldiers by treating real human victims.If this is a training to
save people & not just practice shooting live animals, using hospitals for
teaching on human models is a much better option. IMO.

[Lady's Human]

Bad guys also use automatic
weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.

Not true. Most of what's reported in the media as "AK-47's" aren't.

That aside, if I'm reading the story correctly, it states that this training is for soldiers were medics aren't available....

which means it's not your average private taking the training. All infantry platoons have a medic attached, and one combat lifesaver (CLS) per squad, in many cases one CLS per fire team. The medics take part in EMT training and work in emergency rooms as part of their training.

That pretty much narrows down who the students in this course are, and also means that the person who reported to the media isn't very popular with his fellow soldiers, if he's still in the unit at all.

[lizbud]

That pretty much narrows down who the students in this course are, and also means that the person who reported to the media isn't very popular with his fellow soldiers, if he's still in the unit at all.

Why would he be unpopular? because he felt sick to his stomach seeing
animals being shot up? The big wuss.

Will he finally big a big man when he starts killing people?

[Lady's Human]

Unpopular because he violated the trust of a small, tightly knit community by going to the media. They're not talking about regular soldiers in this article.

[lizbud]

Unpopular because he violated the trust of a small, tightly knit community by going to the media. They're not talking about regular soldiers in this article.

Oh LH, give me a break.

[Lady's Human]

Have you ever been in the military, helped train soldiers, been in a small unit, trained with the same soldiers for years?

Civilians will just never understand.

[lizbud]

If you don't have a real answer to the subject of a thread, you always
attempt to change the subject. Why is that, do ya suppose?


Oh, never mind. I'm done with this back & forth.

[jennielynn1970]

Have you ever been in the military, helped train soldiers, been in a small unit, trained with the same soldiers for years?

Civilians will just never understand.

Oh please. You sound like my brother. He's ex-Navy. I have nothing against the soldiers who are fighting, they just take the orders and do what they are told.

What I don't understand is this "superiority" that we, mere civilians, get when we disagree with military ideals and training.

[RICHARD]

I don't know about LA, but Indy has had 13 shooting victims in the last 2 weeks time. ( I haven't checked yet today) Bad guys also use automatic
weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.

It's also disingenuous to suggest this is a Either/Or question.

Why, I am the most disingenuous person I know.

If every person in Indianapolis is shot with an automatic rifle, it's time to move. I really find shooting people to be disingenuous, Beat them up, the jail terms are far less severe - and you save money on bullets.

At the risk of sounding disingenuous, check out the crime stats for your area and see if they are broken down by type of crime and what the criminal used to shoot the victim.

----------------

I think that the disingenuous government should put the students into every ER room on the planet.

This way they can train on overdoses, the flu and treating kids that shove beans into their orifices while they wait for the disingenuous citizens to lay waste to each other..... The ERs can cut the "Golden Hour" to the time it takes to shuffle the troops over to the hospital where they are needed.



I really think that it's a wonderful idea to let 'trainees' make mistakes on real people. That way, they'll get it right when it does count.

[Cinder & Smoke]

I really think that it's a wonderful idea to let 'trainees' make mistakes on real people.
That way, they'll get it right when it does count.

Nice point, Richard.

But the long 'silence' hints that not everyone "got it".

[RICHARD]

Off the subject, but in the same vein...

Have you ever noticed that we will bring people into our country to perform a 'new surgery'? The cases are usually some tough 10 hour plus cuts that involve multiple specialties.

For example, Siamese twins joined at the head.

Start off with an orthopod, vascular and brain surgeon. Add all the other folks in the room, circulating nurses, anesthesiologist, anesthetist...

At the press conference you will most always hear this, "It was a tough surgery, We never have done a case like this, We'll know when we get there."

Those cases have a 'humanitarian' shine on the outside, but my guess is that there are a few doctors involved with a new 'revolutionary' procedure that they are not willing perform or haven't yet performed it on a patient because of the risks involved.

Those risks include lawsuits, getting your license pinched and ?????


A third world patient(s) that die on the operating table are less likely to call lawyer should something go wrong.

Health care has always been a 'shot in the dark' when it comes to saving lives.

Some where, some place it started with some unlucky soul, human or animal, that gave countless others a second chance at life. LOL, one of the luckiest guys in the world is the one that woke up after the first successful ----------------- surgery.

Imagine how many they got wrong before that? The key word is when the doctor finishes and says "Successful"!

[Lady's Human]

In combat lifesaver training, we used some of those "modern training dummies" to practice giving someone an IV. They don't even begin to simulate giving an IV to a living being. Damned near everyone got the IV stick on the dummy correctly, time after time.

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

Dummies just don't simulate well enough, and I think there might be some real issues with recruiting if we started using trainees as live practice for gunshot wounds.

[RICHARD]

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

I saw a documentary on the AF para-rescuers training.

I got the willies when they showed an exercise where they were trying to evaluate a 'wounded' comrade. They had him taped to a backboard, bouncing around while they were running, shooting and trying to start IVs.

Bruises?

[Grace]

In combat lifesaver training, we used some of those "modern training dummies" to practice giving someone an IV. They don't even begin to simulate giving an IV to a living being. Damned near everyone got the IV stick on the dummy correctly, time after time.

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

Dummies just don't simulate well enough, and I think there might be some real issues with recruiting if we started using trainees as live practice for gunshot wounds.

When I was in Nursing School, we did practice on the dummy arm first, then a classmate. However, there is a limit to what you can do or not do to another human being.

Would you have all med students and nursing students go out and shoot pigs just so they could get some experience?

I took ACLS classes and learned enough using a dummy that I was able to intubate and start jugular IVs on real people.

[Lady's Human]

In med school, or an ER, you have two luxuries the military doesn't.....

Time and a controlled environment.

Once the soldier in question goes through the training, very likely the next time they have to put the skills into use is on a battlefield.....with no one else around, or with enough time to assist .....crappy conditions while you're trying to keep your buddy alive long enough to get to proper medical attention.

Again, though, this training method is NOT being used for every soldier in the military. As stated in the article, it's for soldiers who are not within range of normal medical support (medics, combat lifesavers, docs). That pretty much limits it to LRRP's (long range recon patrollers) and guys who wear funny green hats.

It's being discussed as though it's common practice throughout the military, when in fact it's a very small percentage who are using this training method.