Dog Training Methods

[lizbud]

I wanted to ask Carrie, or really anyone
else knowledgeable about Dog Training, if
there are certain "recognized"or"legitimate"
methods of training dogs..Is it an Art or
a Science? Is it specific to the country where the Trainer is working?
I learned of a Trainer,now working in London
(used to live and work in Oregon)who's
methods (I think) border on the criminal.
The guy's name is Stephan Barry King and
the article was "See Spot Hang" from an
Oregon newspaper and picked up by;

www.arkonline.com and also by

www.oozemagazine.co.uk

Are there any worldwide "standards" or
accreditation in dog training ?

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[carrie]

Uhhhohhh, you have picked a subject and a half here!!!!!

To begin - I am an animal behaviourist, canine behaviourist and canine psychologist....I am not a dog trainer.

I started out as a dog trainer.

There are many ways of getting a dog to do what you want it to do. Many methods work.
I can take a check chain and a dog and a decent lead and have the dog pay attention to me within half an hour, no problem.
I will not be happy about it and neither will the dog - in fact most dogs will spend half the time looking for a way out.

I can take a dog and a bag of sausage and have that dog pay attention to me in the same time. I will not feel secure and neither will the dog - it will spend half it's time testing me or looking for a better option with a more secure future.

This whole subject has no real right or wrong in human eyes. If it works and you can make it work with twenty dogs then you have a working training method.

15 years ago hanging dogs, especially the protection breeds, was a widespread and widely accepted "training" method.

Clicker training is the vogue thing now.

Only using positive reinforcement is a popular method.

Drastic correction, once a dog has learned the command, is effective.

It was only a few years ago that the whole police force in this country was under investigation for their dog training methods - new handlers were encouraged to kick, hang and generally abuse their dogs to establish dominance.

These are all established, well documented and effective methods of dog training. Each method will work for a certain number of dogs. Each person that has had results will use the same method with the next dog and the next and the next, only asking questions when it stops working or in a certain situation their method fails. (There are many more "one off" methods along the same vain.)

Every single method described fails to treat the animal as an individual.
Every method ascribes traits to breeds that are not as important as they first seem ( for example - GSD's used in protection work in the USA have to have European blood to stand a chance....USA bloodlines bred the protective and aggressive traits from the breed.).

Recent research proves that a dog is more like a dog than it is like it's breed. So, in short, all dogs will follow a trail but Bloodhounds are better at it (put simply, I know, but that is the gist). A dog is a dog is a ......wolf.

The differences between domesticated and wild canids are so small that scientific classification has changed to make the Grey wolf, the Arctic wolf (etc.) the exact same species as the domestic dog.

Take a few minutes to think about that....Yorkshire Terrier, Arctic wolf = same species. I'm really used to this idea and it's implications but my brain still goes, "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" every time I think of it...and I do that a lot!

To me, that means that domestic dogs and wild wolves know the same language - have to - they are interbreeding in every region they live in and if they didn't know what each other was saying they would be killing each other as competition, not making puppies! ( It has to be said that wolves have also interbred with coyotes - this behaviour came to a swift end in populations that were protected and coyotes became animals to kill if at all possible, they were competition. In many areas that wolves have been reintroduced in the USA the coyote population has dropped dramatically. This was a goal of the Government for many years and they failed. As fast as they could kill coyotes the breeding rate accelerated. Wolves have proved the best and most natural control, as long as there are enough wolves!)

Sorry, back to dog training....

I have had the feeling for some time that humans are going about in the wrong way.

Would you rather be an elected leader or a military regime?

Dogs, wild or domestic, work on the same basics as humans (that's how we got together). If you have a bully in charge, some individual that will cause physical harm, kill memebers of the society, be aggressive and watch every other member all the time then nobody is happy.

In my view this is your normal domestic dog that has problems with the family that it lives with.

If you see a leader as a strong, confident individual that is more concerned that the environment the pack is living in is secure, that the leader has food ( the leader needs it to continue it's defence of the pack )then the pack is fed. A leader has to show that it has higher matters on it's mind, greater responsibilty....as a pack member how do you know that the leader is a good one?

You rush up to it every time it approaches you and ask for attention!

If you get the attention you ask for it proves that the leader is not thinking about the things a leader should be thinking about!!!!!

If your advances are ignored - you feel safe,secure and looked after...phew!

Is this the longest post ever?

I'm sorry....but you asked and I haven't even started!!

Not sure that I answered the orginal question........got sidelined several times.....but
Great Question!

[lizbud]

Carrie,
Thanks for your response.I had not realized
how varied the training methods were.I also
neglected to specify which 'training' I was
talking about.There's "behavior',obedience,
and activity" training,and ever more advanced
& specific training for Service ,Agility,
Drug sniffing,etc,etc...
What I was interested to know about was
training methods to achieve"functional
obedience" .(Having a well mannered dog,who
is responsive to Basic commands like heeling,
sitting,down-staying,etc.)
You say there is no "right" or "wrong" in
training; that if it works for one dog or
20 dogs,then it is a working training method.
Harsh or brutal training methods such as
"hanging" will definately get the dog's attention (I know it would mine), but don't
you think this harsh treatment can cause
psysical and/or psychological damage to the
animal being trained?
I understand completely the concept of dogs
being dogs being wolfs,etc.They are beasts
not 'furry people'.

[carrie]

Ahhhh, here is the major problem with dog training. Although all the methods work for some dogs unless you understand the way dogs learn and the language they speak to each other how can you say what is cruel?

The question runs far deeper than most are prepared to go. If it feels O.K. to a human and the animal shows no recognisable signs of distress then, for most people, that is enough. Even if the distress is recognised but is short lived it is often deemed a necessary process by many animal trainers. (Take a look at horses and how they are broken in.)
I do not advocate any of the training methods I mentioned but I believe that small parts of some of them are useful in certain situations, for certain dogs.

Dog training is not rocket science - but it does depend on the owner finding things out for themselves. Nobody will know your dog better than you.....BUT it is soooo important to know that above all it is a wolf and thinks like a wolf and understands as a wolf. Corrections have a place in dog training but it is important to know that physical punishment is a last resort in a pack and frequent physical punishment is only ever seen in unstable packs or those with poor leaders.
It is a subject for each to make their own mind up on, but the further into the questions you go the more questions you find.

[lizbud]

Carrie,
I agree that people need to know how dogs
"think" & learn behaviors and knowing your
own dogs personality,strengths and weaknesses
is the basis for starting a good productive
training session.I ,myself would never send
a dog away for training by someone else.
Good trainers should evaluate the individual
dog, and then show you how to train him/her.
I also agree that there is no one way that
is better than another.Better a combination
of methods best suited for the particular
dog.
I wonder if you (living in the U.K.) have
read the article "Obey or be Corrected" that
was in ooze magazine ? After reading of the
trainer's treatment of the Burnese Mountain
puppy during a training session,I really
wanted to know more about the whole process
of training.In my "heart of hearts" I could
never imagine this trainer's actions(if true)
to be anything but beastly and inhumane.
If you have read the article,would you care
to comment on this trainer's methods?
Thank You for your insite. Liz.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Lizbud,
I read the article on Stephen King in the ooze magazine. It has my blood boiling! This guy needs locked up and the key thrown away! The fact that he even considers himself a "Dog Trainer" is an insult to those of us who truly do train dogs and have their best interest at heart. This guy is nothing more than a sadistic human being who vents his anger on dogs and calls it training. I am just a little confused how he can get dogs to be trained. If I was a person looking for a trainer, I would want to know all about them and I would walk away from anyone who wanted to harm my dog in such a cruel manner!

Basically, I believe my dogs are a part of my family and as such deserve humane treatment on my part. It does not take a guiness to figure out that a dogs eyes popping out of it's head is not right! Would anyone do this to a human infant? If they did they would be arrested and charges filed.

Dog Training is nothing more than common sense. If the dog does something correctly it is praised and rewarded. If it does something wrong it is corrected. Notice I said corrected and not punished. Correction is as simple as a verbal "NO", a not so happy "LOOK", withholding a treat, or ignoring the dog. I do not use corrections that are physical unless I know the dog understands the behavior I expect and blatantly defies me. In this case a time out or if the situation warrants a collar correction. This is so unnecessary if you have a dogs trust and respect that I have never used a physical correction on my 6 month old Golden, who has already earned his Canine Good Citizen! People are constantly remarking on how happy he is and how well behaved he is. Trust me, he is a puppy and has his moments but I love his puppiness.

My opinion on dog training is just plain simple common sense. I use positive training methods, reward for wanted behavior and no reward for unwanted behavior. Consistency is the key. The dog will learn through repetition. As I stated earlier, I do not use physical corrections in teaching a behavior. Punishment (in a mild form) only happens when the dog knows the behavior and blatantly defies me. I do not use choke collars, prong collars, or electric collars.

Each person has to do what they feel is right for their dog, however, I think we can all agree that Stephen King's method is not right for ANY ANYTHING! I hope he has never had children.

I just had to put my two cents in here.

[lizbud]

Dixieland Dancer,
First Hi, glad to hear from you !!
If you check the arkonline site,the article
"See Spot Hang" is listed under Animal Abuse.
It's the orginal article that appeared in
the Oregon paper.Unfortunatly the guy has
been married a number of times and DOES have
children...
What really got me was the fact that he
so completely won these people over into
believing he actually had training credentials, and these people believed him.
A well timed "correction' with a chain
coller given when you KNOW FOR SURE that the
dog understands the command, but refuses to
do it is one thing, but this man had 6 mos.
old puppys who I'm sure weren't taught the
words(commands) and had no idea what he was
shouting about..That is not only bad training
but downright cruel & inhumane.
Thanks for your input. Liz.

[carrie]

I haven't read the article you mention but have come across many "trainers" and many, many people with "problem dogs" that went to them for help that used the methods you hint at.

It does work for some dogs. Worse than that it is based on a very basic understanding of the canine mind and behaviour. A VERY BASIC understanding. It stops at the very top layer of animal communication and has taken the extreme behaviours that can be observed and never bothered to see if there is more to be learned. Beneath the obvious and the extreme, and so highly noticeable, behaviour is a multitude of layers that these people do not even imagine exist let alone understand or appreciate.

They get clients because it does work for some, it satisfies some owners concept of dominance and the trainer can actually explain it as a natural process of learning with some confidence.

Sadly this kind of trainer is also the hardest to get to change their minds and methods. They tend to be control freaks and find any relationship that requires compromise difficult. (Interesting to hear he has been married several times...).

Great to hear from you Dixieland Dancer!

[Barbiro]

Dixieland Dancer, BRAVO!!!!! Well-said!!! You took the words right out of my mouth.

[dukedogsmom]

I couldn't read the article. The pictures made me sick. My dog was abused by my ex husband and he's never gotten over it. I'm not a dog trainer but I can say just practice patience and praise and gentle discipline. Spoken words usually work. I hope the horrible things that man has done come back to him a hundred fold.

[Hbrika]

Poor puppy

I would just like to add that praise works just as good as food. When I tell Gully to do something and she does it really good and I praise her honestly she can tell.

She practically glows and forgets what to wag and ends up wagging her head bum and tail she is so excited.

We took her to an obedience school and training was with gentle corrections with a leash (no yanking) and food but mostly PRAISE. Incidently anyone caught being abusive to their dog is out of the class

[purrley]

I put a harness on my new puppy this weekend and took her out for a brief walk. She did amazingly well for the first time. She, of course does not like the harness and balked a little when she ran out of lead, but with a little coaxing she came running right behind me. She got praised like crazy.