Oprah to investigate abuse at puppy mills REAIR May 29

**3muttsandaboston** · 04-06-2008, 08:31 PM

Wow i'm sorry. I really don't mean to offend. I will stop posting in this thread because it is a topic that really really gets to me. Yes i Did Mean we need to tone down the working dogs but not change the breed standard. I will end by saying I love dogs all dogs and hate when they are mistreated. I also wish this thread hadn't veered off the topic of puppymills.

**Jaycee** · 04-06-2008, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Powerlounger

Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.

Yup, taking that deep breath now, big mama.

Listen Powerlounger......
I've just come from a whole weekend at the Red Deer Annual Spring Dog Show where I have spent so much time talking with dedicated and highly "reputable" breeders of 3 possible breeds that I have in mind (#1 is the Boston Terrier, #2 the Boxer and #3 the Hungarian Vizsla). Each and every one of them all say they do not profit much from breeding their dogs. They all said they would take their pup back in a heartbeat if things didn't work out in their new home, and that to me, assures me they care only about the pup rather than the money. None of these breeders allow their pups to be released to their prospective owners until at least 10 weeks old - unlike BYB/puppy mills who ship them off to pet stores at 5 weeks. You need to seriously listen to what the majority of people on this thread are telling you - you cannot tar those who choose to buy a purebred with the same brush as those who buy their dogs from ads in papers or over the internet as they are the irresponsible ones. They are the ones who turn a blind eye to what the mama dog has to go through time after time. I would adopt from a shelter and I do check the animal shelter websites, but I would probably adopt from a Boston/Boxer Rescue shelter as they are "my preferred" breed of dog.

**Twisterdog** · 04-06-2008, 09:03 PM

Wow, this degraded in an ugly way.

For what it's worth, here is my opinion:

Puppy mills - indeed, the scum of the earth. There is a special place in hell, I hope, for these "people" who torture and neglect animals solely to make money.

BYB's - some of them are in the exact same league as a puppy mill, only on a smaller scale. They are simply breeding one or two dogs to death, instead of a thousand. There's room in the inner circle of hell for them, too. Some people who want Fluffy to have babies aren't necesarily evil, just ignorant and misinformed. However, they should NOT be breeding. And the only way to stop them from breeding is if everyone stops buying from them.

Reputable breeders - obviously doing a good and responsible job at what they do. SOMEone has to continue making purebred dogs. These are the ONLY folks who should be doing it.

Shelters/rescues - IMO, the far-and-away best choice for 99% of the dog owning population.

In a perfect world, there would be no such thing as puppy mills, BYBs, shelters or rescues. Everyone who wanted a dog would pre-order one from the reputable breeder of his/her choice, and there would exactly the right number of dogs for homes in the world. But, obviously, we are a LONG way from that. So, to start us down the road to that place, we all must NEVER buy from a puppy mill, pet store or BYB and we must ALWAYS adopt whenever possible.

My personal opinion on adopting a rescue/shelter dog vs. buying from a reputable breeder: Neither is a "bad" choice. However ... if you love goldens or bulldogs or schnauzers, great! I happen to love several purebreds, too. But why not adopt one from a shelter or breed rescue as opposed to buying one from a breeder? Unless you are planning on showing or breeding ... why do you have to have a dog from a breeder with papers? I've never understood this.

I currently have four purebred dogs, two with papers. I didn't get any of them from breeders. They were all rescues. I'm not going to breed or show them, so why would I not adopt/rescue one and save its life? In the years I have been rescuing dogs, I have had easily over a hundred purebred dogs who came into my home as rescues and found forever homes. I have worked with thousands more at shelters. And, with the popularity of the internet, petfinder.com and other sites, it is SO easy to find exactly the breed you are looking for in a matter of minutes.

There is NO health guarantee on ANY dog. I bought my boyfriend (now my husband) a purebred English bulldog for his birthday when we were dating. Not something I would have done for myself, but it was important to him. I did a LOT of research on breeders and the breed. I found the best breeder I could find. He was without a doubt a very reputable breeder, who did every possible health, genetic and soundness check on his dogs. Sadly, it didn't matter - Rosie died before her second birthday. I could have very likely found an EBD on petfinder.com that would have lived to be ten years old. To imply that every dog from a reputable breeders is healthy, and every dog from a shelter has issues is simply ridiculous.

**3muttsandaboston** · 04-06-2008, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Twisterdog

Wow, this degraded in an ugly way.

For what it's worth, here is my opinion:

Puppy mills - indeed, the scum of the earth. There is a special place in hell, I hope, for these "people" who torture and neglect animals solely to make money.

BYB's - some of them are in the exact same league as a puppy mill, only on a smaller scale. They are simply breeding one or two dogs to death, instead of a thousand. There's room in the inner circle of hell for them, too. Some people who want Fluffy to have babies aren't necesarily evil, just ignorant and misinformed. However, they should NOT be breeding. And the only way to stop them from breeding is if everyone stops buying from them.

Reputable breeders - obviously doing a good and responsible job at what they do. SOMEone has to continue making purebred dogs. These are the ONLY folks who should be doing it.

Shelters/rescues - IMO, the far-and-away best choice for 99% of the dog owning population.

In a perfect world, there would be no such thing as puppy mills, BYBs, shelters or rescues. Everyone who wanted a dog would pre-order one from the reputable breeder of his/her choice, and there would exactly the right number of dogs for homes in the world. But, obviously, we are a LONG way from that. So, to start us down the road to that place, we all must NEVER buy from a puppy mill, pet store or BYB and we must ALWAYS adopt whenever possible.

My personal opinion on adopting a rescue/shelter dog vs. buying from a reputable breeder: Neither is a "bad" choice. However ... if you love goldens or bulldogs or schnauzers, great! I happen to love several purebreds, too. But why not adopt one from a shelter or breed rescue as opposed to buying one from a breeder? Unless you are planning on showing or breeding ... why do you have to have a dog from a breeder with papers? I've never understood this.

I currently have four purebred dogs, two with papers. I didn't get any of them from breeders. They were all rescues. I'm not going to breed or show them, so why would I not adopt/rescue one and save its life? In the years I have been rescuing dogs, I have had easily over a hundred purebred dogs who came into my home as rescues and found forever homes. I have worked with thousands more at shelters. And, with the popularity of the internet, petfinder.com and other sites, it is SO easy to find exactly the breed you are looking for in a matter of minutes.

There is NO health guarantee on ANY dog. I bought my boyfriend (now my husband) a purebred English bulldog for his birthday when we were dating. Not something I would have done for myself, but it was important to him. I did a LOT of research on breeders and the breed. I found the best breeder I could find. He was without a doubt a very reputable breeder, who did every possible health, genetic and soundness check on his dogs. Sadly, it didn't matter - Rosie died before her second birthday. I could have very likely found an EBD on petfinder.com that would have lived to be ten years old. To imply that every dog from a reputable breeders is healthy, and every dog from a shelter has issues is simply ridiculous.

I agree with you 100% on everything you said!

I love going to a pound or rescue and meeting dogs of all different shapes and sizes to find the perfect dog for me! My pound has a room or outdoor area you can take them to and play with them and meet them as much as you want.

**Giselle** · 04-06-2008, 09:32 PM

I do want to say, however, that there IS a very valid reason for a non-breeder to want a purebred.

If one plans to compete in certain events, such as lure coursing or agility, there are certain venues which only allow purebreds. I'm referring mainly to AKC, here. In my area, we are very lucky in that we have a few fairly active non-AKC venues. However, those non-AKC trials are few and far in between compared to AKC trials, which can be found (literally) within minutes away several times a month. AKC definitely dominates in certain sports and my next dog would surely be a rescued purebred (at least, until something drastic happens with any of the organizations).

**clara4457** · 04-07-2008, 12:25 PM

I personally, have no issues with reputable breeders. Someone earlier stated (forgot who) that reputable breeders do genetic testing, don't overbreed, vaccinate, etc. - which is true. One problem is that the average person has no idea where or how to look for a reputable breeder

My issue with breeding is more along the lines of "show dogs". It seems that the breed standards that are winning at dog shows promote health issues. Breeding pugs to make their noses shorter (which causes breathing problems), breeding larger and larger GSDs with the slung back hips, breeding Poms with smaller legs, all contribute to that breeds genetic health issues.

I wish the breed standards were more about health and temperament and less about "looks" IMHO. While reputable breeders really do try to prevent health problems in their lines, I do feel that the breed standards promote the health issues that are prevalent in certain breeds. If breed standards changed in a way that were more about health (e.g. longer noses in some breeds, slightly larger toy breeds, slightly smaller giant breeds) then I would feel more comfortable with breeding in general.

BTW - there have been numerous studies about health issues in shelter/rescue dogs versus private breeder dogs - it is about the same.

I think that as far as the USDA is concerned, the primary focus is the protection of people from animal borne illnesses (e.g. mad cow, salmonella, etc). As long as the puppymills can prove that they do not have any illnesses that can be transmitted to humans, they are doing what is legally required. Remember that dogs and cats are considered livestock, so these breeding facilities only have to conform to those rules and regulations. If you have ever seen a egg farm, you would never eat eggs again - the way these chickens are housed is even more horrific than puppymills. Also, it is a business that puts money into the economy - that is all that our state and federal governments really care about.

These are just my opinions and I do not mean to offend anyone who does breed and show animals.

**Moesha** · 05-28-2008, 04:51 PM

The show is going to be reaired tomorrow with an update about changes that viewers made happen.

**Jessika** · 05-28-2008, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Moesha

The show is going to be reaired tomorrow with an update about changes that viewers made happen.

Thanks for the update

I'll be sure to TiVO it!

**Sevaede** · 05-28-2008, 05:54 PM

Just a question... Are you considered less reputable if you choose NOT to vaccinate? I just ask 'cause I believe there are a few folks on this board who do titers instead of having their puppers inoculated every year.

**Casper** · 05-28-2008, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Moesha

The show is going to be reaired tomorrow with an update about changes that viewers made happen.

Splendid! I missed it the first time around and was hoping to have another chance to see it.

**Jessika** · 05-28-2008, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Wenisrubber

Just a question... Are you considered less reputable if you choose NOT to vaccinate? I just ask 'cause I believe there are a few folks on this board who do titers instead of having their puppers inoculated every year.

You know, on a personal level I don't see a problem with it because at least they're being brought to the vet and being examined, etc, and they're obviously having blood work done. As a breeder though, I can see how it may be a different story. I suppose so long as it isn't like, a ten litter a year operation type of breeder, maybe one or two litters a year, something small, maybe that would still be reputable. Well... I'm not sure, I'll have to do some more thinking on it, but bottom line they're getting checked out by a vet and how can that be a bad thing?

**Spiritwind** · 05-28-2008, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jessika

You know, on a personal level I don't see a problem with it because at least they're being brought to the vet and being examined, etc, and they're obviously having blood work done. As a breeder though, I can see how it may be a different story. I suppose so long as it isn't like, a ten litter a year operation type of breeder, maybe one or two litters a year, something small, maybe that would still be reputable. Well... I'm not sure, I'll have to do some more thinking on it, but bottom line they're getting checked out by a vet and how can that be a bad thing?

I have no problem with people who do titers instead of vaccinations... I'm not really following how the 10 litters a year comes into play??... not that I think anyone should have 10 litters a year, but I'm not following how that has anything to do with titers vs. vaccinations.. maybe its because I am currently fighting off the Flu and so I'm really tired and completely exhausted...

..... I do breed, but don't even average 1 litter a year.... I have a long awaited litter due in a couple weeks...

Obviously all pups get vet exams/checked out by a vet, and all of mine have their eyes certificated by a optho between 5-7 wks... etc..etc..etc... but I do my own vaccinations on the pups...

**lizbud** · 05-29-2008, 09:01 AM

bump...... Repeat of this show is today.

**elizabethann** · 05-29-2008, 09:05 AM

Damn, I'm going to miss it again!

**sasvermont** · 05-29-2008, 08:46 PM

According to the reports today, as stated by Oprah, the governor of PA, Rendell, has proposed legislation to regulate the commerical breeders, including the Amish folks reported in this story.

I watched the entire show today. These folks have total disregard for the dogs. It is a business.

I surely hope the people in Lancaster County PA put more pressure on the breeders. I know Ohio has had their issues with breeders too. Again, I can only assume since Ohio is Amish territory too, that the Amish are involved.

By the way, I happen to like most Amish.

It was a tear jerking show to watch. I wish more people would see it.