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Thread: I'm so, so upset. I can't handle it :(

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  1. #1
    I got a reply. I will share it here, and you can tell me what you think.

    Audrey,

    I have been thinking long and hard on what transpired at practice last night, as well as what has transpired with you and Zeke in the (nearly?) year that you two have been training with us. Your email below also had me thinking. Please remember that what I write about below refers directly to my observations of you and Zeke at flyball. I have no idea how Zeke acts in other areas of his life and so cannot comment on that.

    I will not get into the specifics about what transpired last night as I did not directly witness anything...and I have already heard several different interpretations of what occured. Only know that I truly regret that your feelings were hurt last night. This sport is supposed to be fun. No one wishes any potential harm to come to any of their pets.

    Having said that....I will be very frank with you about what I see with respect to you and Zeke. Speaking as a trainer, a team captain, a flyball competitor and as a pet owner, I will do my very best to clearly explain to you the situation as I see it.

    I personnally don't feel Zeke is "aggressive" (and I believe that the majority of our experienced dog people would agree with me here)...if we felt Zeke was aggressive he would not still be training with us. I do strongly believe that Zeke is extremely rude. His behavior towards other dogs is highly unacceptable....he repeatedly 'tracks' dogs on the mats, many times targeting one specific dog, and proceeds to approach this target straight on (most times running), makes very direct eye contact, and often times he makes body contact, all the while his posture is very upright, ears forward. This could certainly be perceived as aggressive behavior by the dog being violated. And to make matters worse, Zeke doesn't respond properly to the reaction he gets from most of the 'targetted' dogs (a growl or bark from the targeted dog seems to interest him more).

    You consistently dismiss Zeke's behavior as "really playfull", however, I have yet to see any dog that Zeke has approached like this look like he/she wants to start playing. Play begins most times between dogs (especially those that don't know each other) by a side-on, sometimes cautious approach by both dogs (feeling out each other so to speak), most times eye contact is very indirect....perhaps the dogs are 'looking' at the other dog's side, then some sniffing, tail wagging and probably a play bow or two and finally fun should they both agree. As you can plainly see this is not how Zeke is approaching dogs at flyball.

    In the world of flyball....personal space for each dog on the mats is not to be violated. Crossing (whatever the intention), especially if contact is made, is grounds for a write-up and dismissal from the tourney. If a dog is written up by a judge several times, he/she is exused from racing with NAFA period. If Zeke were to cross (like he has repeatedly at practice) in a tourney setting he would be written up and excused from racing for the duration of the tourney.

    Zeke is not the only dog that has crossed at our practices. Many green dogs go through this learning process. Most times what gets a dog into trouble with crossing is a high prey/chase drive....really a 'knee-jerk' reaction by the dog to a fast moving object. This is a well established instinct in dogs (and what I am currently dealing with with my BC). However, just because a dog is born with an intinct to 'chase' down fast moving objects, doesn't mean he/she can't (shouldn't) be trained as to what is acceptable to chase and what is not. That is where we come in, as owners/trainers.

    And quite frankly, that is where Zeke is having problems. I get the distinct impression that you expect some of our club members to train Zeke. You often make mention that you are not a trainer. But you own a dog(s). That automatically makes you a trainer. How did Zeke learn to go 'potty' outside? Or sit, settle in the car on drives, pose for a beautiful picture, etc.? I could go on but hopefully you get the idea. You have trained Zeke to fit into your life. You may not have worked with as many dogs as some of us have , however, you know Zeke the best. I firmly believe we, as owners, always know our dogs best. And as long as you, as his owner/trainer, do not acknowledge that Zeke has a behavior problem (that he is being socially rude to other dogs....not being playful), he will not get the training to help him overcome it.

    Because you don't acknowledge how 'rude' and inappropriate Zeke's behavior is (at flyball)....you do not act quickly and purposefully when Zeke crosses on another dog at practice and that is very frustrating for the owner of the other dog involved. I'll give you an example....Eileen is having a similar problem with Pawn. Pawn is crossing sometimes...targeting a dog for an unknown reason to us. As soon as Pawn acts like she will cross (or crosses), Eileen immediately reacts and Pawn is put away (on time-out so to speak). Eileen fully recognizes that Pawn's behavior puts Pawn and any other dogs on the floor at risk, she reacts quickly and so everyone on the floor feels more at ease.

    When I read your email below, I immediately thought of an article I had read a few years ago. I found it this morning...it is called "He just wants to say "Hi"!" and I urge you to take a few moments to read it thoroughly. http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html Although it focuses more on how to socialize dogs to be more tolerable of rude dogs...I think that reading it could bring home some of the comments I have made.

    This email has become way to long-winded...but I wanted to be as clear and detailed as possible. I hope I have not offended you in any way, and I hope you get something out of reading this. As far as Zeke's participation in flyball, I have mixed feelings. I like Zeke and certainly want the best for him...he should be given the opportunity to have a job/past-time that both you and he enjoys. But I wonder if maybe there isn't something out there that might suit you and Zeke better than flyball. Something that is more one-on-one like agility or disc dog (frisbee).

    I welcome any any comments/questions you might have after reading this,
    It seems to me, the could care less if I dropped off the planet and never cmae back to practice. A lot of what she said doesn't seem right, just excuses. Like, I never ONCE asked ANYONE to train Zeke. Yes, I HAVE asked for advice, but how is that them training for me?? I want to do it myself, I just don't know where to go with it. They tell me Zeke has his ears forward, and doesn't do the play bow thing...it's not neccessarily aggression, but appearintly it LOOKS like aggression to the dogs?

    There is no other flyball clubs, agility or any other clubs near me. I can't drive 2 hours to go to one.

    Another thing, I'm not quick to react...yet, this is the first I've heard of it. Shouldn't they be pointing these things out to me? 90% of this e-mail is the FIRST I've heard of it. They should be making suggestions all along if they really wanted me there.

    Someone else told me that this guy was being NICE in his reaction, and others would do worse. They might scare him, but it would be for his (and their dogs) best interest, I'm sure. They wouldn't come up to him AFTER he is under control and HIT them.

    They are one big family, so naturally they will defend him. I'm an outsider, so I'm not important anyway. I've been crying over this for 2 days now. I'm so upset. I really can't seem to do anything right. I messed up with Josie, and I can't do anything with her. Now Zeke. I can't do anything with him. I'm so sick of myself. I really shouldn't own pets.



    My babies: Josie, Zeke, Kiba, Shadow (AKA Butter)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    dont feel that way, like you said you are the "outsider" thay have to cever thair backs first, but i think what happened is still wrong and they should let Zeke participate, and they should´ve told you the thing they noticed as soon as they appeared and not wait too long so they can be corrected.....

    i really hope things get better with you and the pups..........
    Corinna´s Christmas Card Swap ´06
    dedicated to a lovely woman who won many hearts along her life...........
    she will be deeply missed.......Thank you for letting us be a part of your life, you will surely remain in ours FOREVER........R.I.P. Dear Corinna

    Best Fireman in da House´10
    dedicated to the kindest,loveliest and always helpful dude that one would be honored and proud to know........R.I.P. Dear Phred



    notes-to-my-husband blog

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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    Utah
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    5,525
    Please, please don't put yourself down like that! You are a wonderful dog owner! That guy should NOT have hit Zeke at all. Isn't that like illegal or something? It should be.

    Maybe Zeke isn't the most well behaved dog in the world... but he is a wonderful dog and should not be treated like that. He sounds very smart and overall well behaved. You should not be treated like that, either. They are the ones that are being disrespectful to you. I probably woulden't go back if I were you, but I woulden't stop doing flyball with Zeke either. Maybe start your own group? Put flyers around or something.

    Good Luck with everything.

    ...Danielle

    *Sammy*Springen*Molli*

  4. #4
    I don't have the money to start my own group. The jumps themselves are expensive, plus they easily break. I don't know enough about it either. So there is no point in that.



    My babies: Josie, Zeke, Kiba, Shadow (AKA Butter)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
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    U.S.A.
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    8,039
    First don't beat yourself up. We all look at our dogs a bit differently than
    others do. (that's because we love them so much)
    I have a sister that spoils and doesn't train her love bug little dog
    nearly enough, yet in her mind her dog is trained.

    Looks like you have two choices.
    1st I do not think the team captains should discipline your dog.
    I think that should be done by you.
    If you enjoy flyball and you think Zeke does too, than
    bite the bullet and start disciplining him when he is rude to
    other dogs by time outs etc. IF after awhile it looks like Zeke is still
    not improving than try something else with him.

    I would have loved for my Rocky to be a Therapy dog but he would made a
    lousy one. Sheba, I would have loved to compete in obedience with, but
    she was not reliable off lead with other dogs.

    Give it another try and see what happens.
    Either way you have a wonderful dog in Zeke and you are a good owner.
    Just my two cents.


    ----<---<--<{(@

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    New Hampshire
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    6,648
    Quote Originally Posted by KYS
    First don't beat yourself up. We all look at our dogs a bit differently than
    others do. (that's because we love them so much)
    I have a sister that spoils and doesn't train her love bug little dog
    nearly enough, yet in her mind her dog is trained.

    Looks like you have two choices.
    1st I do not think the team captains should discipline your dog.
    I think that should be done by you.
    If you enjoy flyball and you think Zeke does too, than
    bite the bullet and start disciplining him when he is rude to
    other dogs by time outs etc. IF after awhile it looks like Zeke is still
    not improving than try something else with him.

    I would have loved for my Rocky to be a Therapy dog but he would made a
    lousy one. Sheba, I would have loved to compete in obedience with, but
    she was not reliable off lead with other dogs.

    Give it another try and see what happens.
    Either way you have a wonderful dog in Zeke and you are a good owner.
    Just my two cents.
    Those are some good ideas. I like the therapy dog idea as well as the competetion obedience.
    I love Fenway, JoJo, Olivia and Nonnie!

  7. #7
    I'm waiting for Zeke to be tested to be a therapy dog, although I'm sure he'll suck at that too. He jumps up sometimes, and that is an automatic fail.



    My babies: Josie, Zeke, Kiba, Shadow (AKA Butter)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    San Diego
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    894
    The others are right, your definately are not a bad pet owner and don't ever think that. Zeke is a well cared for happy boy and for that you should consider yourself a great pet owner. It sounds like Zeke isn't the only one who has this problem, but the way you correct it may be where the problem lies. The trainer gave you some good advice on how to go about correcting Zeke if he does this. I don't know how your flyball training is setup, but if their are different levels you might want to take him back a level or 2 and start at the basics. He knows flyball so your focus can be on correcting the problem rather than teaching how to do flyball. I've seen an owner in Hunters agility class repeat a level to give them a chance to gain better control. Bottom line is no matter what don't ever think of yourself as a bad pet owner.

  9. #9
    I'm finished with them.

    The captain appearintly talked with both people, and they both said Zeke was biting them, staring them down and "targetting" them. Does this not sound like he is aggressive? They are appearintly experts, but yet they can't tell he is playing? THAT is how Zeke plays. He bites, yes, what dog doesn't when they play? He wasn't ripping into the dog. Zeke may not be so exerperianced with dog language, I don't know. He does play bow, but he doesn't go up to other dogs from the side, play bow. He doesn't. He gets right in their face and is like "let's play!!" he has NEVER had ANY problems with any dog outside of flyball. Every other dog takes this as play. Flyball tells me it is aggressive behaviour. They don' know dogs well. One of the dogs I'm looking after growls and snarls when she plays. At first I thought she was kinda mean, but no, that's how she plays. I believe Nala does the same thing, and from the time I've spent with her, she seems in no way, aggressive. A lot of flyball dogs on my team seem like robots. So why would they want to play with Zeke? Of course they will react badly, they don't WANT to play even if Zeke DID approach normally.

    I addressed the issue about Zeke being hit, and they simply avoided the question. They said this and that, but NEVER said "you're right, hitting is wrong" In fact, they said "No one at our club hits dogs. Witnesses say Mike only pushed Zeke" Tell me, how do you push a dog with a rope? He raised it in the air, and brought it down on Zeke. I'm not blind. I know what happened. But, it seems I'm the only one who saw it. Or, perhaps they live in their own world, and if one person says it, then everyone else must agree. They are perfect, after all.

    I'm not going to be dealing with people who can't even admit, or acknowlege when they've strike a dog. That's called anger. They keep going on about Zeke being rude...They say me OR zeke are not fit to be flyball people/dog. She said I'm too shy, and can't handle how other people treat my dog. In flyball, people do this to other peoples dogs. And I WAS FINE with it, until he HIT my dog that was under my control. There was NO need.

    I'm sure they'll sit around talking about what a stupid person I am, and how my dog is an aggressive dog, and how they're so glad to be rid of me. So much for all the vollenteer work I did for them.

    I cried for a good 3 or more hours last night until I was eventually just too tired and fell asleep. There is so much stress in my life, and it keeps building and building. First I had this issue with my friends and a trip, plus I've been working everyday for a month or 2 now, and it's taking a toll on me, now I'm looking after a friends dogs, which is a lot of pressure, now the flyball, and soon my work may or may not close. I don't handle stress well, and I usually get really depressed. I feel like crying all the time. I feel like the year or 2 I spent with those people, and they're just happy to see me go? I guess I was looking for someone to say "sorry to see you go" I'll miss them, but they won't miss me. I feel life isn't going to well for me right now



    My babies: Josie, Zeke, Kiba, Shadow (AKA Butter)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pnance
    The others are right, your definately are not a bad pet owner and don't ever think that. Zeke is a well cared for happy boy and for that you should consider yourself a great pet owner. It sounds like Zeke isn't the only one who has this problem, but the way you correct it may be where the problem lies. The trainer gave you some good advice on how to go about correcting Zeke if he does this. I don't know how your flyball training is setup, but if their are different levels you might want to take him back a level or 2 and start at the basics. He knows flyball so your focus can be on correcting the problem rather than teaching how to do flyball. I've seen an owner in Hunters agility class repeat a level to give them a chance to gain better control. Bottom line is no matter what don't ever think of yourself as a bad pet owner.
    I agree, but she should have told me this in the beginning, not after a problem arises. I've only trained 2 dogs. They've had a lot of dogs, trained a lot of dogs. How can they expect me to be on their level of knowledge? Common sence to them, may not be for me! They NEED to tell me this or I won't know!!



    My babies: Josie, Zeke, Kiba, Shadow (AKA Butter)

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