In Defense of Aggressive Dogs...

[Giselle]

I mean like a person just walking by and your dog attacks them, that kind of situation.
Or if the dog was going after like friends and family that were over again if they were just sitting there not even touching the dog.

But that's exactly the human fallibility that I'm talking about. "Provocation" can often have little to do between the dog and the trigger. Most aggressive dogs fly off the top because of the specific environment.

For example, if you place Ivy in a dog park setting, she will not display aggressive behaviors. But if you place her in a stressful class environment and command her to do a complex behavior, the stress accumulates and she takes it out on a nearby dog. It is not the trigger itself that leads to an attack. It is a culmination of physical health, mental health, prior training, and the environment. So, for your examples of dogs attacking people for walking by, well my question is: Was the dog lying down? Was the dog sleeping? How long has the dog lived with the people? Is the dog completely healthy? Was the dog guarding a toy? Was the dog guarding its food? WHERE was the attack? What is the relationship between the person walking by and the dog? There is so much more to an aggressive attack than "Oh, Fido bit me as I walked by. He's uncontrollably aggressive and is unable to be helped (ergo, must be put down)."

All I'm saying is: We need to stop looking at aggression as am intangible conflict within the dog itself. It's not. It's a culmination of the environment, of the dog's temperament, of the dog's prior training, and of how other beings within the environment interact with the dog. We need to take on a biopsychosocial approach rather than instantly labelling and condemning aggressive dogs.

By the way, buttercup, I did not mean to single you out, but I was simply pointing out the type of statements that spurred me to make this thread.

[Taz_Zoee]

My mom rescued her dog Pepsi from being PTS because she had bit two people in her two years of life. The owners were required to either find her a home outside the city limits or she would be put down. After asking questions to the owners we discovered she bit these people when she had puppies. One bite per litter. Well duh! She was protecting her puppies. The people were just walking past the house when she ran out and bit them.
So, my mom only agreed to take her if they got her fixed. The owners gave us a muzzle to use when we take her to the vet. My mom has NEVER used it. We do know that she is not good with small children though. And apparently my niece forgot this and let her out while her little cousin was there and he got bit. My niece got in BIG trouble for this, not to mention she probably already felt bad enough.
So Pepsi was labeled "aggresive" but she now leads a very healthy happy life out in the country and gets LOTS of exercise everyday.
The only reason my parents agreed to take her was because of the circumstances and the fact that it wasn't HER fault she bit, it was the irresponsible owners.

Great thread Sophie! You know what I am going through with Zoee. Some might think she is aggresive. I like reactive better.

[Twisterdog]

Most aggressive dogs can be fit into a situation where there aggression can be controlled. Few need to be euthanized straight out. However, in the world we live in, shelters and rescues can expect to be sued even if they placed the dog with somebody willing and capable of working with aggressive dogs should that person be bitten.

This post brings up a good point. IF you can find the right owner for the particular dog at the right time, yes, most fearful/aggresive/reactive/ill/etc. dogs can be rehabilitated.

However, the problems lies with that big IF. And because of the gross pet overpopulation problem we have in this country, that is a HUGE IF. If one works at a shelter, and has one available spot to take a dog, one is going to take the passive, laid back, mellow dog. Because it's more likely to get adopted quickly, and it's less likely to cause a dangerous or expensive dog fight, or bite a person.

If you have a limited amount of time, money and space - and what shelter or rescue doesn't - you simply cannot spend the disporportionate amount of that it would require to save one aggresive/reactive dog, when you could save dozens of others instead.

Sad fact of our over-populated world.

[kokopup]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

[noellenc]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

[kokopup]

originally posted by noellenc

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.

I had indicated in a previous post that the dog would be let out to
play with her kids that visited every week or so. The kids would tire
of watching the dog or would go in and no one would put the dog back in it's pen. The dog lived in a pen until the kids came to visit. It would be outside with the kids with no adult supervision. The dog would wander off to do it's thing because you have irresponsible owners.

The dog used to climb the fence to get out so they put a chicken wire
top on the pen. Unfortunately the chicken wire doesn't keep the dog from roaming if they neglect to put it back in the pen.

[Giselle]

I'm not talking about the logistics of keeping or adopting out an aggressive animal. That is NOT the purpose of this thread. This thread is meant to expose the deeper intricacies of why an animal would aggress and why we, as their owners and handlers, should refrain from immediate judgement and condemnation. THAT is why I made this thread.

There is a pervasive tendency amongst the general public to assume: "one bite and you're out". And that's the mentality that I'm really trying to drive at. (btw, Koko, nobody here can ever provide an objective assessment of the situation you shared because nobody here was there except for you and nobody can ever know the entire situation - so, it's really just speculation if we try to discuss why/how it happened and if it all could have been prevented/if it really was 'unprovoked'. Interesting story, though.)

[Daisy and Delilah]

Originally posted by noellenc

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

I've heard stories on the news that stated something like this happening. I wonder how many times the dog has been blamed and destroyed for no reason. It's heartbreaking. It seems the dog's actual participation, or lack thereof, is almost always omitted from the stories.

[kokopup]

Originally posted by Giselle

(

btw, Koko, nobody here can ever provide an objective assessment of the situation you shared because nobody here was there except for you and nobody can ever know the entire situation - so, it's really just speculation if we try to discuss why/how it happened and if it all could have been prevented/'if it really was 'unprovoked'. Interesting story, though.)

I have alway respected your expert advice and knowledge on this forum. It is obvious to me though that any opinion other that your own regarding aggressive dogs is just not wanted. I appreciate your concern for the poor misunderstood one biter, but the facts remain there are
many dogs in the hands of irresponsible owners that will kill or maul and in many cases this could have been prevented.

When you say 'if it really was unprovoked' says that I must have slanted the story to make it appear worst than it was. This dog had been reported to the sheriff on 2 occasions. The life of the two goats would have been spared if they had taken some kind of action, if nothing more than putting fear in the owner to be responsible.

It appears that only your commentary can possibly be given "objective assessment". Forums are suppose to be discussions not platforms for one persons biased agenda. I see the stories that support your view received no condemnation.

[Twisterdog]

I'm not talking about the logistics of keeping or adopting out an aggressive animal. That is NOT the purpose of this thread. This thread is meant to expose the deeper intricacies of why an animal would aggress and why we, as their owners and handlers, should refrain from immediate judgement and condemnation. THAT is why I made this thread.

Both topics are clearly related. If you open a thread on a message board, you cannot be in total control of every response to it. As long as the responses are on-topic, YOU cannot dictate which direction the thread takes, even if it does not keep with YOUR original purpose. Others might be interested in certain posts and points of view, even if you yourself are not. Hence the reason we post on public message boards, eh?

When you say 'if it really was unprovoked' says that I must have slanted the story to make it appear worst than it was ... It appears that only your commentary can possibly be given "objective assessment". Forums are suppose to be discussions not platforms for one persons biased agenda. I see the stories that support your view received no condemnation.

Not trying to start an argument, but I got this impression, as well. Obviously, this is the internet ... no one can provide witnesses to the stories they tell. I see know reason, however, to doubt kokopup's story and write it off. Cases or unprovoked aggression DO happen, even if they are uncommon.

[Husky_mom]

Totally agree...

as said some signs might be so subtle one may not notice... to me no animal acts unprovoked or for a reason...

an aggresive dog acts upon reaction...

I got bitten by a dog once... totally my fault... but it was the dogs fault to everyone else´s eyes... he was at HIS home and was wagging, so I went pet him adn reached through the fence (totally intruding HIS home) logically he bit me... not hard just a nip but still everyone freaked and wanted to call AC... I mean.. what can anyone expect from a dog that´s protecting his house from an intruding hand...not considering I was not molesting him nor was I a "bad" person or had mean intentions.. the dog simply reacted acordingly...

that´s no reason to put down a dog...

in the case kokopup mentioned... I don´t think that´s a dog worthy of being put down... that dog had "manners" toward his family (the kids that for brief periods played with him and the lady that fed him) but non at all towards stragers.. and that is a lack in socialization that definately turned him into a charging "beast" in outsiders eyes... a dog that didn´t know to respect creatures (goats) or just had prey drive... this dog with proper training should´ve been great.... just as any dog

[Giselle]

Koko, I put "unprovoked" in quotations because I'm still referring back to the other thread's notion of 'unprovoked' aggression. I'm still trying to draw a distinction between what is really truly unprovoked and what is not. As we can never know if it was really truly unprovoked, I put it in quotations. I'm sorry that it came off as accusing you of slanting the story but I assure you that was not the intent. The thread was going off on a specific tangent (questioning whether the dog you encountered had unprovoked aggression), and I made that comment to clarify that nobody - especially none of us - can really comment on the dog's state of health or behaviors, so it would be best if we left your encounter as is. My objective was to point out that delving deeper into your incidence without personal experience with that dog (and especially since it was awhile long ago) would just land us in a circle of speculations, which seemed to be where the thread was going and which is not the road I want this thread to go down.

Which leads me to my response to thread-control. No, I can not control every response to this thread, but I can attempt to keep it on a track that correlates closely to the original intent. And, if one should so desire to continue to talk about the logistics and applications of aggression and behavior management, one can start a new thread - as I did when I wanted to comment on something from a previous thread. I meant for this thread to be a discussion based more on 'philosophy/theory' versus 'application/logistics'. I apologize if that wasn't clear my previous post but that's really all I was attempting to reign in.

[bckrazy]

I couldn't agree more, Sophie.

Honestly, I read and re-read all of the posts in this thread... and I don't find your posts to be close-minded, at all. I agree with your comment about the crazed, blood-thirsty dog Koko was talking about. It could easily be a case of high prey drive and/or a dog who is accutely sensitive to fast movements. Is a Husky who kills a cat an aggressive dog? The story also seems strange because dog-aggression, livestock/animal-aggression, and human-aggression are very different. A DA dog could be the least HA dog in the world, or vice versa. Gonzo is incredibly sensitive to movements, whether it's livestock, another dog, a person, a car, a balloon, etc. Of course, he doesn't have prey drive. He has herding drive, which is modified prey drive. Desensitizing him to stimulus and working on re-directing his focus has helped a lot, but I would never trust him alone in stimulating situations. Either way, ANY dog who is allowed free reign of a neighborhood should not be blamed for ANYTHING they do. Their owners should be banned from ever owning dogs for that kind of idiocy.

It is incredibly rare to find a dog who truly bites unprovoked. What people don't understand is that every single dog, even their sweet old Lab/Golden/etc, has the propensity to bite and WILL bite if they are pushed far enough. Some dogs have a fuse a mile long and some a millisecond. In almost any case, that fuse can be stretched out with regular, positive, fairly easy training and good management. I don't think that most people do understand a dog's body language, to be honest. Things like yawning, licking, cowering, turning away, earset, tailset and hard stares are often completely ignored or misunderstood. I have noticed that all of the people I know who have been bitten before by dogs have been bitten more than once, and my dogs are never fans of them. Some people naturally get it, but some people seem to think that dogs and people have the same way of communicating non-verbally. Dogs who do bite "unprovoked" are more than likely dogs who have been trained by their owners, unintentionally, to show no warnings and to bite first and ask questions later. Dogs who are alpha rolled, pinned, smacked, and punished for growling are often the only dogs who learn to resort to biting without a warning and without giving the bitee any time to correct what they're doing to bother the dog. In the end I feel that except for in rare cases, most aggression is caused by people, whether unwittingly or ignorantly or accidentally or even intentionally (through unscrupulous breeding, or for breeding towards aggression in the case of bully breeds and guardian breeds)... and it can be (and should be) eased and managed by people.

I completely agree that each dog is an individual, and just because a dog is aggressive/reactive/what have you does not make them any less worthy of life than any other dog. My reactive/fearful dog happens to also be the most loving, devoted, obedient companion that the rest of my family and I could ever ask for. But I suppose he should be euthanized because he doesn't adore everything and everyone. When people say that dogs who have issues should be PTS, because there are plenty of friendly, aloof dogs in the world, it really bothers me. My dog with issues is irreplaceable. Ultimately, if you as an owner educate yourself and take every step necessary to keep others and your dog safe, I do believe that nearly every single aggressive dog can be helped and can be kept safely.

[Seravieve]

Ultimately, if you as an owner educate yourself and take every step necessary to keep others and your dog safe, I do believe that nearly every single aggressive dog can be helped and can be kept safely.

That's what we're trying to do with Bunny. She's definitely dog aggressive, and has a prey drive... for the squirrels and birds. She's also VERY territorial and we've come to decided that she's leash reactive as well.

We do our best to keep her happy and safe. I know its a touchy subject, but we've used some of CM's instructions with her and its really helped. She wears a backpack on walks and is MUCH better about not chasing cars because she's doing a job. She came from Animal Control as a stray, so who knows whats happened in her life before us. We are honest about her issues and control her accordingly. She is definitely able to lead a happy life while being separated from strange dogs (ie no dog parks, Petsmart trips, etc).

Each dog is different, and while there may be some who can be controlled with different methods, there are some who cannot. It also depends on the willingness of the owners too. =)

[kokopup]

I was not trying to hijack your thread with my post concerning aggressive dogs and irresponsible owners. I was relating an instance in my recent past where a neighbor had a pit bull that in my opinion she should not have had because of the nature of this dog. I have owned some reactive aggressive dogs in my 69 years. My first dog at 10 was a Chow that was over protective of me and because of that I had to give him up. If my parents had been more knowledgeable about dogs It could have been trained to not be aggressive toward others. I guess to this day I resent having to give up my friend Sandy. I know with proper training any dog can be nonaggressive and even a Pit Bull can be taught to count to 10 before reacting, I have owned a Doberman and German Shepherds that were loving members of my family. One of my Shepherds became so socialized he was useless as even a watch dog. I was in the Navy then and dozens of people walked by my fenced yard daily. She got so used to people they could open the gate and walk in and she just wagged. Sort of like Koko but at least Koko will alarm if someone new comes up.

I know you say that dogs ( in this case a Pit Bull) do not attack humans or animals without provocation. That is true at some level. If an experienced dog behaviorist had been witness to what occurred he would have been at a loss to determine what was the trigger for this aggression. I know there are several factors that are contributors.
You had an owner that did nothing but dump food and water through the chain link fence. You had kids that came to play maybe 2 or 3 times a month. You had no supervision to prevent this dog from roaming at it's own whim. There did not appear to be a consistent pack leader so this dog was on his own. It is fortunate that he was on his own because if he had teamed up with others he could have done no telling what.


When I say unprovoked I am saying no immediate visible trigger. The dog had to travel half a mile, and climb a fence to get to the goats. I'm sure he could smell his pray but there was nothing to stop it from making that half mile scamper. In my mother-in-laws case the dog traveled 1/4 of a mile to charge her hanging cloths. In my case I would never have known what hit me because I was kneeled working on my lawn mower when Koko intervened to turn his attention.

I'm sure in the right hands this dog could have been rehabilitated and maybe made someone a wonderful dog. It takes special skills to properly socialize a highly reactive bred like the Pit Bull. This is true if raised from a pup, but to take on a dog that already has issues is another thing altogether. That is why I said it should be destroyed. It never became an issue with the owner because when she moved she left her dog ,her cat, and a house full of belongings.

I will leave you to your thread now. I don't know that much about the effects of dopamine or serotonin on a dogs behavior.