In Defense of Aggressive Dogs...

[buttercup132]

I mean like a person just walking by and your dog attacks them, that kind of situation.
Or if the dog was going after like friends and family that were over again if they were just sitting there not even touching the dog.

[IRescue452]

Most aggressive dogs can be fit into a situation where there aggression can be controlled. Few need to be euthanized straight out. However, in the world we live in, shelters and rescues can expect to be sued even if they placed the dog with somebody willing and capable of working with aggressive dogs should that person be bitten.

[k9krazee]

Thank you. Said much better than I could have ever, Sophie. Good thread.

[Twisterdog]

Most aggressive dogs can be fit into a situation where there aggression can be controlled. Few need to be euthanized straight out. However, in the world we live in, shelters and rescues can expect to be sued even if they placed the dog with somebody willing and capable of working with aggressive dogs should that person be bitten.

This post brings up a good point. IF you can find the right owner for the particular dog at the right time, yes, most fearful/aggresive/reactive/ill/etc. dogs can be rehabilitated.

However, the problems lies with that big IF. And because of the gross pet overpopulation problem we have in this country, that is a HUGE IF. If one works at a shelter, and has one available spot to take a dog, one is going to take the passive, laid back, mellow dog. Because it's more likely to get adopted quickly, and it's less likely to cause a dangerous or expensive dog fight, or bite a person.

If you have a limited amount of time, money and space - and what shelter or rescue doesn't - you simply cannot spend the disporportionate amount of that it would require to save one aggresive/reactive dog, when you could save dozens of others instead.

Sad fact of our over-populated world.

[kokopup]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

[noellenc]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

[kokopup]

originally posted by noellenc

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.

I had indicated in a previous post that the dog would be let out to
play with her kids that visited every week or so. The kids would tire
of watching the dog or would go in and no one would put the dog back in it's pen. The dog lived in a pen until the kids came to visit. It would be outside with the kids with no adult supervision. The dog would wander off to do it's thing because you have irresponsible owners.

The dog used to climb the fence to get out so they put a chicken wire
top on the pen. Unfortunately the chicken wire doesn't keep the dog from roaming if they neglect to put it back in the pen.

[Giselle]

I'm not talking about the logistics of keeping or adopting out an aggressive animal. That is NOT the purpose of this thread. This thread is meant to expose the deeper intricacies of why an animal would aggress and why we, as their owners and handlers, should refrain from immediate judgement and condemnation. THAT is why I made this thread.

There is a pervasive tendency amongst the general public to assume: "one bite and you're out". And that's the mentality that I'm really trying to drive at. (btw, Koko, nobody here can ever provide an objective assessment of the situation you shared because nobody here was there except for you and nobody can ever know the entire situation - so, it's really just speculation if we try to discuss why/how it happened and if it all could have been prevented/if it really was 'unprovoked'. Interesting story, though.)

[Twisterdog]

I'm not talking about the logistics of keeping or adopting out an aggressive animal. That is NOT the purpose of this thread. This thread is meant to expose the deeper intricacies of why an animal would aggress and why we, as their owners and handlers, should refrain from immediate judgement and condemnation. THAT is why I made this thread.

Both topics are clearly related. If you open a thread on a message board, you cannot be in total control of every response to it. As long as the responses are on-topic, YOU cannot dictate which direction the thread takes, even if it does not keep with YOUR original purpose. Others might be interested in certain posts and points of view, even if you yourself are not. Hence the reason we post on public message boards, eh?

When you say 'if it really was unprovoked' says that I must have slanted the story to make it appear worst than it was ... It appears that only your commentary can possibly be given "objective assessment". Forums are suppose to be discussions not platforms for one persons biased agenda. I see the stories that support your view received no condemnation.

Not trying to start an argument, but I got this impression, as well. Obviously, this is the internet ... no one can provide witnesses to the stories they tell. I see know reason, however, to doubt kokopup's story and write it off. Cases or unprovoked aggression DO happen, even if they are uncommon.

[Daisy and Delilah]

Originally posted by noellenc

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

I've heard stories on the news that stated something like this happening. I wonder how many times the dog has been blamed and destroyed for no reason. It's heartbreaking. It seems the dog's actual participation, or lack thereof, is almost always omitted from the stories.

[kokopup]

Originally posted by Giselle

(

btw, Koko, nobody here can ever provide an objective assessment of the situation you shared because nobody here was there except for you and nobody can ever know the entire situation - so, it's really just speculation if we try to discuss why/how it happened and if it all could have been prevented/'if it really was 'unprovoked'. Interesting story, though.)

I have alway respected your expert advice and knowledge on this forum. It is obvious to me though that any opinion other that your own regarding aggressive dogs is just not wanted. I appreciate your concern for the poor misunderstood one biter, but the facts remain there are
many dogs in the hands of irresponsible owners that will kill or maul and in many cases this could have been prevented.

When you say 'if it really was unprovoked' says that I must have slanted the story to make it appear worst than it was. This dog had been reported to the sheriff on 2 occasions. The life of the two goats would have been spared if they had taken some kind of action, if nothing more than putting fear in the owner to be responsible.

It appears that only your commentary can possibly be given "objective assessment". Forums are suppose to be discussions not platforms for one persons biased agenda. I see the stories that support your view received no condemnation.

[Giselle]

Koko, I put "unprovoked" in quotations because I'm still referring back to the other thread's notion of 'unprovoked' aggression. I'm still trying to draw a distinction between what is really truly unprovoked and what is not. As we can never know if it was really truly unprovoked, I put it in quotations. I'm sorry that it came off as accusing you of slanting the story but I assure you that was not the intent. The thread was going off on a specific tangent (questioning whether the dog you encountered had unprovoked aggression), and I made that comment to clarify that nobody - especially none of us - can really comment on the dog's state of health or behaviors, so it would be best if we left your encounter as is. My objective was to point out that delving deeper into your incidence without personal experience with that dog (and especially since it was awhile long ago) would just land us in a circle of speculations, which seemed to be where the thread was going and which is not the road I want this thread to go down.

Which leads me to my response to thread-control. No, I can not control every response to this thread, but I can attempt to keep it on a track that correlates closely to the original intent. And, if one should so desire to continue to talk about the logistics and applications of aggression and behavior management, one can start a new thread - as I did when I wanted to comment on something from a previous thread. I meant for this thread to be a discussion based more on 'philosophy/theory' versus 'application/logistics'. I apologize if that wasn't clear my previous post but that's really all I was attempting to reign in.

[Giselle]

I mean like a person just walking by and your dog attacks them, that kind of situation.
Or if the dog was going after like friends and family that were over again if they were just sitting there not even touching the dog.

But that's exactly the human fallibility that I'm talking about. "Provocation" can often have little to do between the dog and the trigger. Most aggressive dogs fly off the top because of the specific environment.

For example, if you place Ivy in a dog park setting, she will not display aggressive behaviors. But if you place her in a stressful class environment and command her to do a complex behavior, the stress accumulates and she takes it out on a nearby dog. It is not the trigger itself that leads to an attack. It is a culmination of physical health, mental health, prior training, and the environment. So, for your examples of dogs attacking people for walking by, well my question is: Was the dog lying down? Was the dog sleeping? How long has the dog lived with the people? Is the dog completely healthy? Was the dog guarding a toy? Was the dog guarding its food? WHERE was the attack? What is the relationship between the person walking by and the dog? There is so much more to an aggressive attack than "Oh, Fido bit me as I walked by. He's uncontrollably aggressive and is unable to be helped (ergo, must be put down)."

All I'm saying is: We need to stop looking at aggression as am intangible conflict within the dog itself. It's not. It's a culmination of the environment, of the dog's temperament, of the dog's prior training, and of how other beings within the environment interact with the dog. We need to take on a biopsychosocial approach rather than instantly labelling and condemning aggressive dogs.

By the way, buttercup, I did not mean to single you out, but I was simply pointing out the type of statements that spurred me to make this thread.

[Taz_Zoee]

My mom rescued her dog Pepsi from being PTS because she had bit two people in her two years of life. The owners were required to either find her a home outside the city limits or she would be put down. After asking questions to the owners we discovered she bit these people when she had puppies. One bite per litter. Well duh! She was protecting her puppies. The people were just walking past the house when she ran out and bit them.
So, my mom only agreed to take her if they got her fixed. The owners gave us a muzzle to use when we take her to the vet. My mom has NEVER used it. We do know that she is not good with small children though. And apparently my niece forgot this and let her out while her little cousin was there and he got bit. My niece got in BIG trouble for this, not to mention she probably already felt bad enough.
So Pepsi was labeled "aggresive" but she now leads a very healthy happy life out in the country and gets LOTS of exercise everyday.
The only reason my parents agreed to take her was because of the circumstances and the fact that it wasn't HER fault she bit, it was the irresponsible owners.

Great thread Sophie! You know what I am going through with Zoee. Some might think she is aggresive. I like reactive better.