Cruel & Outdated Training Methods

[jennielynn1970]

Have you ever been in the military, helped train soldiers, been in a small unit, trained with the same soldiers for years?

Civilians will just never understand.

Oh please. You sound like my brother. He's ex-Navy. I have nothing against the soldiers who are fighting, they just take the orders and do what they are told.

What I don't understand is this "superiority" that we, mere civilians, get when we disagree with military ideals and training.

[Cinder & Smoke]

I really think that it's a wonderful idea to let 'trainees' make mistakes on real people.
That way, they'll get it right when it does count.

Nice point, Richard.

But the long 'silence' hints that not everyone "got it".

[RICHARD]

Off the subject, but in the same vein...

Have you ever noticed that we will bring people into our country to perform a 'new surgery'? The cases are usually some tough 10 hour plus cuts that involve multiple specialties.

For example, Siamese twins joined at the head.

Start off with an orthopod, vascular and brain surgeon. Add all the other folks in the room, circulating nurses, anesthesiologist, anesthetist...

At the press conference you will most always hear this, "It was a tough surgery, We never have done a case like this, We'll know when we get there."

Those cases have a 'humanitarian' shine on the outside, but my guess is that there are a few doctors involved with a new 'revolutionary' procedure that they are not willing perform or haven't yet performed it on a patient because of the risks involved.

Those risks include lawsuits, getting your license pinched and ?????


A third world patient(s) that die on the operating table are less likely to call lawyer should something go wrong.

Health care has always been a 'shot in the dark' when it comes to saving lives.

Some where, some place it started with some unlucky soul, human or animal, that gave countless others a second chance at life. LOL, one of the luckiest guys in the world is the one that woke up after the first successful ----------------- surgery.

Imagine how many they got wrong before that? The key word is when the doctor finishes and says "Successful"!

[Lady's Human]

In combat lifesaver training, we used some of those "modern training dummies" to practice giving someone an IV. They don't even begin to simulate giving an IV to a living being. Damned near everyone got the IV stick on the dummy correctly, time after time.

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

Dummies just don't simulate well enough, and I think there might be some real issues with recruiting if we started using trainees as live practice for gunshot wounds.

[RICHARD]

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

I saw a documentary on the AF para-rescuers training.

I got the willies when they showed an exercise where they were trying to evaluate a 'wounded' comrade. They had him taped to a backboard, bouncing around while they were running, shooting and trying to start IVs.

Bruises?

[lizbud]

Oh please. You sound like my brother. He's ex-Navy. I have nothing against the soldiers who are fighting, they just take the orders and do what they are told.

What I don't understand is this "superiority" that we, mere civilians, get when we disagree with military ideals and training.

I believe this is a case of everdosing on the Kool aid.

I have heard that when the military person is discharged, they are allowed
to have their own brains back. Maybe not all do.

[Karen]

I believe this is a case of everdosing on the Kool aid.

I have heard that when the military person is discharged, they are allowed
to have their own brains back. Maybe not all do.

What do you have against the men and women serving in our military? Why so prejudicial against them?

[Grace]

In combat lifesaver training, we used some of those "modern training dummies" to practice giving someone an IV. They don't even begin to simulate giving an IV to a living being. Damned near everyone got the IV stick on the dummy correctly, time after time.

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

Dummies just don't simulate well enough, and I think there might be some real issues with recruiting if we started using trainees as live practice for gunshot wounds.

When I was in Nursing School, we did practice on the dummy arm first, then a classmate. However, there is a limit to what you can do or not do to another human being.

Would you have all med students and nursing students go out and shoot pigs just so they could get some experience?

I took ACLS classes and learned enough using a dummy that I was able to intubate and start jugular IVs on real people.

[jennielynn1970]

What do you have against the men and women serving in our military? Why so prejudicial against them?

She didn't say she did.

Neither did I.

Is there an issue with people stating their opinions on here??

I questioned the attitude received by many of them, that superiority they seem to think they have.

I think they are are over there and doing their duty because that is what they are being told to do. They can't say "I don't want to go." Whether they believe they are actually fighting a just war is an entirely separate issue.

Patriotism has nothing to do with supporting war.

It has to do with supporting the men and women who are doing their jobs.

One of the kids I taught in school has a phrase on her MySpace that I quite like. "Bombing for Peace is like F^@$ing for Virginity."

[Lady's Human]

In med school, or an ER, you have two luxuries the military doesn't.....

Time and a controlled environment.

Once the soldier in question goes through the training, very likely the next time they have to put the skills into use is on a battlefield.....with no one else around, or with enough time to assist .....crappy conditions while you're trying to keep your buddy alive long enough to get to proper medical attention.

Again, though, this training method is NOT being used for every soldier in the military. As stated in the article, it's for soldiers who are not within range of normal medical support (medics, combat lifesavers, docs). That pretty much limits it to LRRP's (long range recon patrollers) and guys who wear funny green hats.

It's being discussed as though it's common practice throughout the military, when in fact it's a very small percentage who are using this training method.

[Karen]

I do not think he was displaying "superiority" as was accused.

I do think, for example, if a forensic detective told me something relating to her training, I wouldn't contradict him or her just because I have seen things on TV that makes me think I know better. Why should it be any different for soldiers?

[Grace]

In med school, or an ER, you have two luxuries the military doesn't.....

Time and a controlled environment.

Med school - probably. But the ER - that can turn on a dime, and you have no time and most certainly no control. 6 come in from an accident with only 2 empty beds. I've done it. And I never had a pig to practice my skills on.

I grant you battle field conditions are waaay different. But certainly one doesn't need to shoot pigs. Before these people are sent to the combat zone, they should have received at least a semblance of training in a big city ER. That would definitely prepare them. For goodness sakes, the article says the pigs are anesthetized. What possible good can that do - in combat they are going to be confronted with semi-comatose patients, maybe even some who are combative. The ER would love it if their patients came in asleep.

And if the military has the time for them to learn from a pig, then there certainly is enough time to send them to an ER.

Just another case of poor planning from the git-go.

[Lady's Human]

You're assuming one thing....

Time.

We normally take someone from a basic first aid level of training to combat lifesaver (Iv's, advanced stabilization, wound treatment beyond first aid) in about 5-10 days. Normally it's done in that timespan due to operational needs.


As far as the ER goes, if you find me an ER which will take non-medical specialty trained soldiers and let them into the ER for hands on treatment training, you're on. Somehow I sincerely doubt that either the general public or the insurance companies would ever let that happen.

[Grace]

You're assuming one thing....

Time.

We normally take someone from a basic first aid level of training to combat lifesaver (Iv's, advanced stabilization, wound treatment beyond first aid) in about 5-10 days. Normally it's done in that timespan due to operational needs.


As far as the ER goes, if you find me an ER which will take non-medical specialty trained soldiers and let them into the ER for hands on treatment training, you're on. Somehow I sincerely doubt that either the general public or the insurance companies would ever let that happen.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm not sure what you mean by that. As I stated in my previous post, poor planning from the beginning. And the pigs are the victims - this time.

What about putting them in one of the medical units in Iraq - or Afghanistan - or the hospital in Germany? But then they would be practicing on the poor servicemen and women who are injured - again the result of poor planning.

BTW - who is "we"?

[Lady's Human]

It's not poor planning, it's reality.

Medical skills are an add on to other skills. If I'm reading the original story correctly,these are most likely soldiers who are highly trained infantrymen (Lrsd, spec ops) who are learning emergency med care prior to deployment. NOT average soldiers.

Even in spec ops units, you have a fair amount of turnover. You need X number of trained CLS or other emergency med care specialists (normally around 20% of the soldiers in your units). One or more soldiers rotate to another unit, the skills have to be replaced, whether the incoming soldiers want to replace those skills or not.

You WANTED to go to med school. The soldiers are being told "Here's your new job....and you also have to learn emergency medical care in addition to your MOS"


As to "we", I'm recently retired, but I had to assist training CLS several times during my career, and trained soldiers throughout my career.

CLS doesn't involve shooting pigs, the class the article is referring to is an extremely small number of soldiers.