Courtesy, manners and tradition

[Medusa]

Someone made a comment in the Doghouse about the 1950's and its generation and how we turned out and it got me to thinking. (Yep, I do that on occasion. )

I've been observing a trend of courtesy, manners and tradition falling by the wayside. It isn't my intention to generalize or to criticize, merely to initiate a discussion on how things have changed since I was growing up. For ex: I've noticed the familiarity in which minors speak to adults. I'm not speaking of class distinction but a manner of respect. I was raised to speak to them only when spoken to and then to call them Miss, Mr. or Mrs., never by the first name even if they said that it was permissible to do so. To this day I still call one of my parents' friend Mrs. H and never Betty, even though I'm 60 years old.

When an adult entered or left a room, girls were required to curtsy and boys to bow. Girls almost always wore dresses, even for play, although I did quite often wear shorts and halters in the summer. I had school clothes, play clothes and church clothes and once I was dressed for church, I didn't dare get my dress dirty.

We visited the sick on Sundays, took them meals that we had prepared and we prayed w/them, too. Children wouldn't dream of touching anything in someone else's home. If a dish filled w/candy was inviting, I would never help myself to the candy, even if the person gave permission, until I got "the look" from my mother. Eating in restaurants was a rare and special occasion rather than commonplace as it is today and, of course, manners were of tantamount importance. My father would ask me what I wanted and then he would order it for me. If I dared to speak w/my mouth full, burp, scratch, put my elbows on the table, etc., I was sternly lectured, whether this behavior was in public or at home.

At school girls were required to wear dresses and always carry a fresh, clean handkerchief; boys had to have shoes shined and shirts tucked in, hair neatly combed. Girls were not allowed to wear any hair ornaments other than a barrette, certainly no jewelry except a watch, tennis shoes were forbidden for both boys and girls. If we didn't "pass muster", we were sent home and told to correct our appearance. If we got into any kind of trouble in school, we got into worse trouble w/our parents. We respected our neighbors' property and were taught not to cross their lawns as a shortcut.

Some of these traditions and courtesies seem rather silly and perhaps even uptight now but when I see how some, not all, children behave today, I rather think it preferable to go back to the old ways. It's a different world now, that's for sure; technology seems to have taken over. Gone are the days of hand-written thank you notes; an email or text message has to suffice, if you even get that. One of my friends told me that her husband was upset w/their boys because they didn't send thank you notes to relatives for gifts that they had received and my friend said "Thank you notes are just so silly. They're thankful but why do they have to write notes to prove it?" To even discuss the subject w/her seemed a waste of time.

I certainly do not feel that this generation is a lost cause. We usually hear only of the bad things that take place and when we do hear of the good things that today's kids do, such a big deal is made of it. Yes, we should praise them when they demonstrate acts of selflessness but I think we place too much emphasis on self esteem and not enough on self respect. Too many kids today are loaded w/self esteem; they think more of themselves than is necessary but it appears that self respect is lacking.

I hope that this didn't sound like a rant but I do wish to begin a discussion on how my PT family feels that things have changed since you were brought up. Make no mistake, my background is a humble one. My father was a coal miner and my mother a domestic worker before she met my father and she remained a homemaker throughout her life. Our lack of money and social standing, however, didn't mean that we couldn't be respectful, courteous and mannerly to one another. Perhaps it's the British in me. LOL That said, I think I'll have another cup of tea. Thank you for reading this far. Your comments are most welcome.

[pomtzu]

Since you and I are about the same age Mary (Ok - I admit I'm older), then I pretty much echo your statements.
I too was brought up sending thank you cards, calling the neighbors Mr or Mrs, wearing certain clothes for certain occasions, wearing dresses even for play, etc, etc. Even my mother addressed the neighbors as Mr or Mrs, never by their first name.
Mom was that 50's stay at home cookie baking mom, and dad was a machinist. My brothers and I never had to do without necessities, but there were few luxuries. I was absolutely thrilled one year when my "big" Christmas gift was a pair of ice skates! We truly appreciated everything that we had, and we never had so much that we got bored and wanted more and more. Most kids now have too much, and I was probably just as guilty by giving my kids too much also.
And we were taught respect - for people, people's property, people's feelings, and I feel a lot of that has been lost over the years. If I had ever back-talked my parents, or any other adult, I would have been picking myself up off the floor, and now parents can't even give their kids a swat on the backside because of the fear that the child could get on that phone and call 911 and have the parent arrested!
So yes - we have come a long way indeed since my days as a kid growing up. Technology is wonderful and our kids get smarter with every generation, but in this growing and learning, so many of the old fashioned family values have, and are, disappearing. I'm not saying bring back outdated dress codes or the like, but I sure would like to see manners and respect (for ourselves and others alike) make a comeback. Those are two things that will never be outdated.
So everyone - do not jump on this post and pick it apart please. I am only stating what I believe, and my feelings, and no one has to agree with what I have said. Think of me as old-fashioned and even behind the times if you wish, but at least try to have an open mind.

[Cataholic]

Hmm...interesting, for certain, but, I don't agree with a large portion of your old world ways. (Which I find odd, as I seem to find myself agreeing with you by and large).

I am 43, and was brought up in a white collar, middle income home. I have 7 siblings, and all of us, I believe, are well mannered, educated and respectful of others, be it the person or the property. I know my mom says she always made sure we acted a certain way while out in soceity, and that kids behaved differently back in the day, I think, she, like all of us, suffers from selective memory.

Key example- I have a 4 year old...and when people ask me what he was doing at a particular stage/age in time, I simply cannot recall. I can believe what I think he was doing, but, really, if I consult my notes, or sit down and really think about it, I am often wrong with what I think. My friends seem to be the same way. I think people remembering back in time- 30, 40 years, might not be remembering things with such clarity as they think.

I don't think kids have changed all that much. I do think the activities of the adults have changed. For instance, 30 years ago, dining out regularly was not an every day occurance. I can bet that taking a child to a restaurant the very first time is different than taking the child to a restaurant for the 20th time. The newness, and as a consequence, the anxieties of a new place, have gone away. Children often act differently when they are familiar with a place.

I think there is more 'inclusion' of the family in today's environment. Go back 30, 40 years, and dad worked all day, came home ate dinner and watched some TV/radio, and that was often 'family time'. Today, the family might go to a movie, a party, the mall, etc. More exposure to the outside world increases the moments for ANY behaviour to be examined, let alone bad behavior.

Many parents lives are so stressed, hustling from here to there, maybe not so much of a structure tied to nap time, bed times, consistency, sleeping in the car, etc. That 'stress' and lack of consistency travels down. I usually see 'bad' behaviour at nap times, or at bedtimes/down times. Is it the child's fault that the parent is still trying to fit in one more errand when according to the child's body clock, he should have been fed and down for a nap 1 hour ago?

Are there bratty children and irresponsible parents in the world today? Of course. Are there parents that maybe shouldn't be parents, but, are faced with the responsibility of raising a child when they would rather be doing anything else? Sure. Are some parents doing the best that they can do, but for the fact they didn't have parents that guided them (which would be those parents close in age to Medusa ), would be doing it differently? Sure.

Most of us know, as Richard would say, adults that are AHs. Rude, inconsiderate, nasty, ignorant people. I guess we could say that is cause of the way they were raised, right? But, again, those people would have been raised 20, 30, 40 years ago, with those standards Medusa espouses.

Frankly, I think children are the same, but, our exposure to them is increased. 30 years ago, if Frankie was a big brat, Frankie's mom probably didn't take him anywhere, due to the public scorn/humiliation the family would face. Today? I don't think people care so much what Mrs. Smith down the street thinks of their family.

Raising a child is a process to me. My thoughts on motherhood 10 years ago is no where near where it is today. My thoughts on what I would do has changed in the last 4 years. Things I did with Jonah at 2 are different than the way I handle things today. I learn and I grow as my son develops. I looked for the instruction manual, but, I think it got lost in a dirty diaper. My son is no where near perfect, and I am guilty of running another errand, stopping for a quick bite when everything else dictates we should be home, losing my temper/patience when there isn't any reason other than my own internal frustrations with the situation/myself.

I wouldn't want to raise Jonah to bow to someone, I don't think calling someone Mr/Mrs instills respect, I don't believe in corporal punishment, and would never take an object to my son in discipline, I encourage Jonah to express his desires freely (doesn't mean I give in to him), and most of all, I tell him daily that I love him more than anything, and that he has so much good inside of him. My job is to help him reach his potential, through ways that I think are worthy.

And for those days when I am pulling my hair out, and he is ready to do the same, I remember what my mom says, "and this, too, shall pass".

[sasvermont]

I agree with the posts so far. Both/all sides. Times change. Do I like the changes, no. Am I over it, I would say yes! I would have a problem if I had children and/or grandchildren, I am sure.

When I was a youngster, as I recall, my Grandfather complained continually about how disrespectful we were (i.e. considered leaving the dinner table before HE was finished, leaving the table without asking to be excused, we had the nerve to sit with our elbows on the table until corrected by HIM, blah blah blah) and how spoiled we were! I still watch my table manners as a result of him being to strict. I don't regret his strictness now. Comparing my upbringing to many children's today, the complaining continues by many about the previous generation. Different complaints, but complaints about how lax society seems to be. Will it ever end? Who knows. Times change. I call it "the old person syndrome"..... Now it is our turn to feel the change. I suspect it will happen to each generation, as time passes.

I think that if the economy takes years to recover, we will see a bit of a change to the positive - taking many folks to a humble level again. I think some people have become "too full of themselves".... and pass that on to their children. I hate to see people suffer and I hate to suffer myself, but I think the wind will be taken out of a few sails over the next few years. Maybe some true appreciation of kind acts from and with neighbors, friends, relatives may come in to play as well. I have hope that being polite comes back in to fashion. Even "please and thank you" would make such differences in exchanges!

As far as bratty kids go, I have seen my share of them and I do think the parents are not doing the children any favors by letting them continue with the awful behavior. Fortunately, not all parents rear their children with their ears and eyes closed. I would agree that the percentages are not good when it comes to manners/behavior in public. It certainly is an attention getter, when the children act out, but since they are not my children, I let the parents accept all the positive and negative .....

Change is difficult, but inevitable.

[Medusa]

Hmm...interesting, for certain, but, I don't agree with a large portion of your old world ways. (Which I find odd, as I seem to find myself agreeing with you by and large).


I am 43, and was brought up in a white collar, middle income home. I have 7 siblings, and all of us, I believe, are well mannered, educated and respectful of others, be it the person or the property. I know my mom says she always made sure we acted a certain way while out in soceity, and that kids behaved differently back in the day, I think, she, like all of us, suffers from selective memory.

Key example- I have a 4 year old...and when people ask me what he was doing at a particular stage/age in time, I simply cannot recall. I can believe what I think he was doing, but, really, if I consult my notes, or sit down and really think about it, I am often wrong with what I think. My friends seem to be the same way. I think people remembering back in time- 30, 40 years, might not be remembering things with such clarity as they think.

I don't think kids have changed all that much. I do think the activities of the adults have changed. For instance, 30 years ago, dining out regularly was not an every day occurance. I can bet that taking a child to a restaurant the very first time is different than taking the child to a restaurant for the 20th time. The newness, and as a consequence, the anxieties of a new place, have gone away. Children often act differently when they are familiar with a place.

I think there is more 'inclusion' of the family in today's environment. Go back 30, 40 years, and dad worked all day, came home ate dinner and watched some TV/radio, and that was often 'family time'. Today, the family might go to a movie, a party, the mall, etc. More exposure to the outside world increases the moments for ANY behaviour to be examined, let alone bad behavior.

Many parents lives are so stressed, hustling from here to there, maybe not so much of a structure tied to nap time, bed times, consistency, sleeping in the car, etc. That 'stress' and lack of consistency travels down. I usually see 'bad' behaviour at nap times, or at bedtimes/down times. Is it the child's fault that the parent is still trying to fit in one more errand when according to the child's body clock, he should have been fed and down for a nap 1 hour ago?

Are there bratty children and irresponsible parents in the world today? Of course. Are there parents that maybe shouldn't be parents, but, are faced with the responsibility of raising a child when they would rather be doing anything else? Sure. Are some parents doing the best that they can do, but for the fact they didn't have parents that guided them (which would be those parents close in age to Medusa ), would be doing it differently? Sure.


Most of us know, as Richard would say, adults that are AHs. Rude, inconsiderate, nasty, ignorant people. I guess we could say that is cause of the way they were raised, right? But, again, those people would have been raised 20, 30, 40 years ago, with those standards Medusa espouses.


Frankly, I think children are the same, but, our exposure to them is increased. 30 years ago, if Frankie was a big brat, Frankie's mom probably didn't take him anywhere, due to the public scorn/humiliation the family would face. Today? I don't think people care so much what Mrs. Smith down the street thinks of their family.

Raising a child is a process to me. My thoughts on motherhood 10 years ago is no where near where it is today. My thoughts on what I would do has changed in the last 4 years. Things I did with Jonah at 2 are different than the way I handle things today. I learn and I grow as my son develops. I looked for the instruction manual, but, I think it got lost in a dirty diaper. My son is no where near perfect, and I am guilty of running another errand, stopping for a quick bite when everything else dictates we should be home, losing my temper/patience when there isn't any reason other than my own internal frustrations with the situation/myself.

I wouldn't want to raise Jonah to bow to someone, I don't think calling someone Mr/Mrs instills respect, I don't believe in corporal punishment, and would never take an object to my son in discipline, I encourage Jonah to express his desires freely (doesn't mean I give in to him), and most of all, I tell him daily that I love him more than anything, and that he has so much good inside of him. My job is to help him reach his potential, through ways that I think are worthy.


And for those days when I am pulling my hair out, and he is ready to do the same, I remember what my mom says, "and this, too, shall pass".

One of my favorite sayings.

[Medusa]

Oh I'm not saying that I always agreed w/the old word ways. LOL I was simply pointing out the differences between then and now. Believe me, the curtsy, etc. got to be tedious.

I agree w/you to a point but this isn't exactly what I meant when I referred to children. Toddlers are always testing their boundaries and they certainly can't be expected to behave as adults. I was referring more to school age children who, by the time they're old enough to sit still in a classroom, should have learned that there is a certain decorum that's expected of them.

This is an example of the point that I was trying to make and, apparently, have failed at it. I was raised to discuss w/out name calling because it's abusive. Words can harm and words can heal. I don't agree that adults are AHs and it isn't the adults that I was talking about. It's the standards with which we were brought up as opposed to how children are brought up today that I was hoping to discuss. We need only to watch the news or read the paper to see that there are some bad people out there but, again, this isn't what I was talking about.

Again, I agree w/you regarding bowing, etc. I wouldn't have wanted my son to bow to anyone either. However, I did teach him to call people by Mr./Mrs./Miss because familiarity breeds contempt, IMO. My neighbor's son still calls me Mrs. L and when I told him he may call me Mary his mother said "No, he may not. It's disrespectful." (Her words, not mine.)

[Medusa]

[QUOTE=sasvermont;2113545] Comparing my upbringing to many children's today, the complaining continues by many about the previous generation. Different complaints, but complaints about how lax society seems to be. Will it ever end? Who knows. Times change. I call it "the old person syndrome"..... Now it is our turn to feel the change. I suspect it will happen to each generation, as time passes.

I have hope that being polite comes back in to fashion. Even "please and thank you" would make such differences in exchanges!
QUOTE]

Very well said. It appears that an erosion of civility and common courtesy has taken place and, like you, I would love to see their return.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Maybe this is not so much of a generational difference as a personal opinion on manners. My mom is about the same age as you- she is turning 60 this year, and I know she feels completely differently on the subject. She attended Catholic school, so of course she had to wear a skirt and blouse to school everyday as her uniform. Even in the dead of winter when there was no doubt an extreme risk of frost bite, which seems to border on the ridiculous (She said that she and her sister would wear pants underneath and change at school. At least her parents had a brain!). Anyway, I'm just pointing out that she came from a similar situation in this respect...I really don't see how wearing a dress makes anyone more polite.

I've seen a lot of home movies from her childhood, and aside from all the waving (obviously the movies don't have any sound) she and her siblings seemed pretty similar to kids now. Smiling, goofing off, that sort of thing. I honestly don't think kids are really any different than the kids of 50 years ago.

In fact, I work in an elementary school and I see normal kids everyday. Yes, there are some bratty kids who could stand to learn some people skills, but by and large the vast majority of children are well behaved, polite, and nice to be around most of the time. Actually, the reason I chose to work with children is that I find them more pleasant to be around the most adults...so I guess I don't understand where you are getting your impressions.

Yes, times have changed but I still think kids (and adults) are basically the same. As I'm sure happened in the past, people will find someone or something to blame- rock 'n roll (my mom was allowed to listen to the Beatles, something they didn't approve of at her school), tv, violent video games, or bad parents.

[Cataholic]

Oh I'm not saying that I always agreed w/the old word ways. LOL I was simply pointing out the differences between then and now. Believe me, the curtsy, etc. got to be tedious.

I agree w/you to a point but this isn't exactly what I meant when I referred to children. Toddlers are always testing their boundaries and they certainly can't be expected to behave as adults. I was referring more to school age children who, by the time they're old enough to sit still in a classroom, should have learned that there is a certain decorum that's expected of them.

This is an example of the point that I was trying to make and, apparently, have failed at it. I was raised to discuss w/out name calling because it's abusive. Words can harm and words can heal. I don't agree that adults are AHs and it isn't the adults that I was talking about. It's the standards with which we were brought up as opposed to how children are brought up today that I was hoping to discuss. We need only to watch the news or read the paper to see that there are some bad people out there but, again, this isn't what I was talking about.

Again, I agree w/you regarding bowing, etc. I wouldn't have wanted my son to bow to anyone either. However, I did teach him to call people by Mr./Mrs./Miss because familiarity breeds contempt, IMO. My neighbor's son still calls me Mrs. L and when I told him he may call me Mary his mother said "No, he may not. It's disrespectful." (Her words, not mine.)

I wasn't saying adults are AHs. I was saying we all KNOW adults that are AHs (or whatever word you affix) and that these people are long past the develpmental age, be it toddler or school aged children, and these adults SHOULD know how to act. My point, which apparently I did not express very well, was that even adults raised in the golden age still act inappropriately, and it wasn't just the younger generation, bringing up the youngest generation, with poor manners. It goes with my theory that children haven't changed.

As to what someone would call someone, if I specifcally asked someone to call me by my first name, and that person continued to call me something else, to me, that is disrespectful. We all should be permitted to be addressed as we see fit. Being part of the 'inner circle' extols a certain bond, a certain closeness, which to me, breeds respect. Strangers call me by my last name. Friends and family call me by my first. But, I have never been one all hung up on the Ms/Mr. thing. I get and give respect by my manners and my actions, not by what I call someone. I am sure we all have been called down by the use of formal addresses, and certainly there isn't anything respectful about that.

[Medusa]

[QUOTE=Pembroke_Corgi;2113586I really don't see how wearing a dress makes anyone more polite.[/QUOTE]

It didn't make them more polite. The title of the thread also has the word "tradition" in it. It was traditional for girls to wear skirts to school, even in the dead of winter. We had leggings that we wore under our dresses and removed them at school. I didn't mind wearing dresses; I rather liked it actually but then, I was/am a girlie girl. This also wasn't meant to be a discussion about bratty kids vs. normal kids, whatever that means. I don't think I referred to kids as being brats in my comments. As I've stated previously, I don't indulge in name calling. I was referring to the manners, customs and traditions of the 50's vs. those of today.

[JenBKR]

Yes, there are some bratty kids who could stand to learn some people skills, but by and large the vast majority of children are well behaved, polite, and nice to be around most of the time.

I agree with you on this. I think that the problem is that there are those bratty kids, and they stand out more than the well behaved ones, giving all kids a bad name.

I will say that when I visit family in the south, I do notice more manners. Kids say sir and mam and are taught manners in school. Some of it is nice to see...but they call their parents sir and mam too. I don't think I would want that for my kids, to that extent.

[Cataholic]

Medusa,
I went back and read the OP, and really, while you might not use the word, "bratty" you really do reference the ways kids behave today.
As is often the case, the OP is just the OP, things take on a life of their own after that.

[Medusa]

Medusa,
I went back and read the OP, and really, while you might not use the word, "bratty" you really do reference the ways kids behave today.
As is often the case, the OP is just the OP, things take on a life of their own after that.

But I did make my point w/out name calling, did I not? If I was to reprimand a child, I would never refer to him/her as a brat but I would definitely make it clear how I felt about their behavior. I feel that I need to reiterate that I don't feel that today's generation is a lost cause and I also don't feel that all kids are ill mannered. As I said, we usually only hear of the bad examples. However, I still think that common courtesy and manners have taken a back seat to an "I'm the center of the Universe" mentality.

[Cataholic]

Yes, you made a point without name calling. The picture painted was still the same, but, no reference to the word brat was contained in your post. That seems really, really significant to you, so, I want to make sure I state that clearly.

It really ties right in to my point about addressing someone by the title, and how it doesn't really convey anything different to me. It is just a word, the respect is behind the action, not the term. Just like your description of the child's behavior was left without a 'label', but, the meaning (brat) was still inferred.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am a volunteer at a local historic site. We give tours for over 40,000 fourth graders each year.

I can tell you MANY things about the behavior of children -- when the parents are not around.

One thing a veteran volunteer told me early on -- is to introduce myself by title Mrs./Ms/Miss not as I had been as Sara.

It has made a tremendous difference. Children know that someone with a title "Ms/Mr." is an authority -- by first name is a friend. When you are trying to control and educate 20 - 25 ten year olds you NEED the authority. (I have had to add a request that the chaperon parents turn off their cell phones to my intro.)

The behavior of the group has nothing to do with economic group - ethnic group - public or private school. Very few of us like to do home school groups though.

Whether it is a good group has to do with the quality of the parents. If they are involved (NOT on the cell phone...NOT disappearing or chatting loudly in the back of the group) and do their job - corraling wanderers - correcting behavior -- it will be a great tour. We will have fun and the kids will learn.

For the most part I enjoy doing the tours but I must say...I do see the "I am the Center of the Universe"/"My Child is the Center of the Universe" more than might be healthy!