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Thread: Cruel & Outdated Training Methods

  1. #1
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    Cruel & Outdated Training Methods

    Another, better method would be to send these medics to any big city
    trauma unit for a few weeks on the job training.There is no shortage of
    needy patients who need treatment there.




    US Army to shoot live pigs in Hawaii in trauma training drill for soldiers heading to Iraq
    The Associated PressPublished: July 18, 2008


    HONOLULU: The U.S. Army is moving forward with plans to shoot live pigs and treat their gunshot wounds in a medical trauma exercise Friday for soldiers headed to Iraq.

    The Army says it's critical to saving the lives of wounded soldiers. Animal-rights activists call the training cruel and outdated.

    Maj. Derrick Cheng, spokesman for the 25th Infantry Division, said the training is being conducted under a U.S. Department of Agriculture license and the careful supervision of veterinarians and a military Animal Care and Use Committee.

    "It's to teach Army personnel how to manage critically injured patients within the first few hours of their injury," Cheng said.

    The soldiers are learning emergency lifesaving skills needed on the battlefield when there are no medics, doctors or facility nearby, he said.

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    People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, however, said there are more advanced and humane options available, including high-tech human simulators. In a letter, PETA urged the Army to end all use of animals, "as the overwhelming majority of North American medical schools have already done."

    "Shooting and maiming pigs is outdated as Civil War rifles," said Kathy Guillermo, director of PETA's Laboratory Investigations Department.

    The group demanded the exercise be halted after it was notified by a "distraught" soldier from the unit, who disclosed a plan to shoot the animals with M4 carbines and M16 rifles.

    "There's absolutely no reason why they have to shoot live pigs," PETA spokeswoman Holly Beal said.

    The bloody exercise, she said, is difficult for soldiers because they sometimes associate the animals with their own pet dogs.

    Cheng said the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time. He had "no doubt whatsoever" in the effectiveness of the instruction, which he called the best option available at the base.

    "Those alternative methods just can't replicate what the troops are going to face when we use live-tissue training," he said. "What we're doing is unique to what the soldiers are going to actually experience."

    Cheng didn't have details about the number of pigs, how they were acquired or the weapons involved in the training.

    The soldiers being trained are with the 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, which is deploying to Iraq this year.

    "We understand (PETA's) concerns and point of view. At the same, the Army is committed to providing the soldiers with the best training possible," Cheng said.

    Disappointed at the Army's decision, PETA on Thursday instructed its 2 million members to inundate the Army with calls and e-mails.

    "We're hoping at the 11th hour here that we can have this stopped. We have to hang on to hope," Beal said.

    PETA believes the U.S. military has conducted similar training at other bases using pigs and goats.
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  2. #2
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    H S is this for real? I can't believe the army would do something like that. No better than those labs that keep live animals for experimenting....

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by shepgirl View Post
    H S is this for real? I can't believe the army would do something like that. No better than those labs that keep live animals for experimenting....

    Unfortunately yes, it is true. Totally cruel & unnecessary, but true.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/18/arm....ap/index.html
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  4. #4
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    That's disgusting!!! They should train them using George Dubbya. Now that's a REAL pig!!

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    Pigs have the closest physical 'makeup' to humans as far as some body physiology goes.

    Battle wounds are far different than regular ER wounds. Bullets don't just put two little holes in a body that can be mended with a torn t-shirt. That's Hollywood BS.


    A ballistic gel model will give you an idea as to what a bullet does, but does nothing to answer the question of the amount of treatment needed to keep a victim alive. I guess it's more important to keep pigs alive that it is to think about a soldier's welfare!

    If PETA has such problems with this kind of study, they should protest the use of porcine heart valves that may extend the life of a loved one.

    ----------

    But then again-
    If I was a soldier that was wounded in battle and I knew the medic or doctor was trained by studying wounded pigs, I wouldn't let him touch me.

    I guess I'd be mad if he ate pork chops and bacon, too!


    ----------


    In the Air Force PJ program, each student does a turn at an ER.

  6. #6
    This is really ridiculous....

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    Quote Originally Posted by RICHARD View Post

    Battle wounds are far different than regular ER wounds. Bullets don't just put two little holes in a body that can be mended with a torn t-shirt. That's Hollywood BS.


    A ballistic gel model will give you an idea as to what a bullet does, but does nothing to answer the question of the amount of treatment needed to keep a victim alive. I guess it's more important to keep pigs alive that it is to think about a soldier's welfare!

    I don't know about LA, but Indy has had 13 shooting victims in the last 2 weeks time. ( I haven't checked yet today) Bad guys also use automatic
    weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.

    It's also disingenuous to suggest this is a Either/Or question. We can treat and save more soldiers by treating real human victims.If this is a training to
    save people & not just practice shooting live animals, using hospitals for
    teaching on human models is a much better option. IMO.
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  8. #8
    Bad guys also use automatic
    weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.
    Not true. Most of what's reported in the media as "AK-47's" aren't.

    That aside, if I'm reading the story correctly, it states that this training is for soldiers were medics aren't available....

    which means it's not your average private taking the training. All infantry platoons have a medic attached, and one combat lifesaver (CLS) per squad, in many cases one CLS per fire team. The medics take part in EMT training and work in emergency rooms as part of their training.

    That pretty much narrows down who the students in this course are, and also means that the person who reported to the media isn't very popular with his fellow soldiers, if he's still in the unit at all.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady's Human View Post

    That pretty much narrows down who the students in this course are, and also means that the person who reported to the media isn't very popular with his fellow soldiers, if he's still in the unit at all.

    Why would he be unpopular? because he felt sick to his stomach seeing
    animals being shot up? The big wuss.

    Will he finally big a big man when he starts killing people?
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  10. #10
    Unpopular because he violated the trust of a small, tightly knit community by going to the media. They're not talking about regular soldiers in this article.
    The one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind wasn't king, he was stoned for seeing light.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady's Human View Post
    Unpopular because he violated the trust of a small, tightly knit community by going to the media. They're not talking about regular soldiers in this article.

    Oh LH, give me a break.
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  12. #12
    Have you ever been in the military, helped train soldiers, been in a small unit, trained with the same soldiers for years?

    Civilians will just never understand.
    Last edited by Lady's Human; 07-19-2008 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Oops, I forgot the obligatory rolly eyes
    The one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind wasn't king, he was stoned for seeing light.

  13. #13
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    If you don't have a real answer to the subject of a thread, you always
    attempt to change the subject. Why is that, do ya suppose?


    Oh, never mind. I'm done with this back & forth.
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  14. #14
    The subject of the article was military training.

    My comments were about the training in question. The only comment I made that wasn't directly related to the article was to correct a constant media lie about firearms.

    Other than that, I fail to see where I attempted to change the topic.

    I could cast aspersions on an entire community like you did with your
    Will he finally big a big man when he starts killing people?
    , but I'll refrain.
    The one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind wasn't king, he was stoned for seeing light.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizbud View Post
    I don't know about LA, but Indy has had 13 shooting victims in the last 2 weeks time. ( I haven't checked yet today) Bad guys also use automatic
    weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.

    It's also disingenuous to suggest this is a Either/Or question.
    Why, I am the most disingenuous person I know.

    If every person in Indianapolis is shot with an automatic rifle, it's time to move. I really find shooting people to be disingenuous, Beat them up, the jail terms are far less severe - and you save money on bullets.

    At the risk of sounding disingenuous, check out the crime stats for your area and see if they are broken down by type of crime and what the criminal used to shoot the victim.

    ----------------

    I think that the disingenuous government should put the students into every ER room on the planet.

    This way they can train on overdoses, the flu and treating kids that shove beans into their orifices while they wait for the disingenuous citizens to lay waste to each other..... The ERs can cut the "Golden Hour" to the time it takes to shuffle the troops over to the hospital where they are needed.



    I really think that it's a wonderful idea to let 'trainees' make mistakes on real people. That way, they'll get it right when it does count.

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