Dog Breeds -- Then and Now

I was just looking thru old posts, and found a thread from back in August on the Dog House board about Pedigree Dogs Exposed -- Pedigree Dogs Exposed

But while reading thru the posts.. several people posted pictures of how certain dog breeds looked in the late 1800's to early 1900's... compared to how they look now. I am kind of a big history buff, I love to read about different historical events, then add my favorite thing ever into the mix -- dogs, and I also love to look up and read about different breeds history.... so I thought it might be interesting to have people post pictures of their breed(s) from how the looked 100 or more years ago compared to how they look now... and also talk a bit about what the breed was originally bred to do...

Especially since there has been the talk in Europe of changing breed standards for the health of certain breeds...etc... While I am in TOTAL agreement about many breeds (GSD, Bulldogs, etc..) that they have been bred with extrem exagerations to the breed standards, and have totally changed from the way they used to look. However there are still many breeds that have been left relatively unchanged....

One the thread "Pedigree dogs Exposed" Since other people have posted pictures of different breeds from the late 1800's to early 1900's, to compare to how the breeds look today, I thought I'd post some pictures of Collies.... honestly the change from then to now in American Collies, for the most part, the change as been very little. Yes, some of the dogs of today may have bigger coats, but grooming/nutrion and coat care is much different now than it was back then. Heads are still VERY similar today, as they were in the early 1900's... body style is pretty much the same... many of the dogs of yesterday could be competitive in the show ring today! Especially if they were groomed like they groom collies today!.. Tho Collies have changed a bit, for the most part they remain like they were in the late 1800's and early 1900's....

http://www.borntobe.hu/pics/old_cockie.jpg
Old Cockie -- believed to be the first Sable Collie -- born in 1867

http://www.chekia.com/TrefoilWEB.jpg
Cockie's Son "Trefoil" a tri-colour "Galway Collie" born in 1873 Ireland is the undisputed ancestor of all of today's Collies.

All Collies, all over the world today, owe their inception to Ch. Trefoil who, whelped in 1873, and is behind every one of today's Collies. five generations from Trefoil comes Ch. Chirstopher (1887), and his two sons, Ch. Stracathro Ralph and the Edgbaston Marvel, all are traced to American Collie history today.

http://www.chekia.com/ChChristopherBorn1887WEB.jpg
CH Christopher - born 1887, was exported to
the U.S. after being bred extensively in Britan.
All Collies today trace back to this dog.


http://koti.mbnet.fi/danlyn/wishaw.jpg
GB & AM CH Wishaw Clicker - Born: 1898-1913.
Imported from England into the US by J.P Morgan

JP Morgan was a HUGE collie fancier and imported some of the best dogs from Europe into the US...

http://koti.mbnet.fi/danlyn/parbold.jpg
GB CH Parbold Piccolo - Born: 1899
Imported into the US in the early 1900's by J. I. Behling. The day of his arrival in the US his owner turned him loose to run in the yard, and he disappered and was never seen again. This was considered to be perhaps the greatest loss to the american collie fancy.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/danlyn/anfield.jpg
GB CH Anfield Model - Born: 1902 - Scotland - son of Piccolo (above)
Imported into the US in the early 1900's. He was one of the most higly touted dogs between 1900-1910. He was the ideal that many breeders were striving for in head and expression.

http://www.chekia.com/1895WEB.jpg
Ch. Wellesbourne Conqueror", born 1895 - father to Piccolo, Grandfather of "Model" (above).
a double great grandson of Christopher, was imported into the U.S, at the age of seven to become one of the instrumental sires in U.S. pedigrees.

http://www.chekia.com/ChMagnetBorn1912_WEB.jpg
Ch Magnet" born in 1912, is often called the foundation sire of U.S. Collies. Imported from England at the age of nine,his impact was made on both U'S. and Brithish lines.

http://www.chekia.com/ChEdenEmerald1922_300_Web.jpg
"Ch Eden Emerald" born in 1922,
was a grandson of Ch Magnet, and grandsire of Ch El Troubador Of Arken. Most Collies in England and the U.S. trace back to this prolific sire.

http://www.chekia.com/Hawk_BandW_Web.jpg
"Ch Black Hawk Of Kasan" born in 1966
was the first Smooth Collie to win Best In Show
at the CCA National Specialty; first Smooth Collie to win an all breed Best In Show, and six times won Best Of Variety at the National

http://www.chekia.com/ChLaundLynne1917_WEB.jpg
"Ch Laund Lynne", born 1917 in England,

This beautiful blue merle Smooth Collie would surely be competitive in today's show ring.
She had no fewer than 95 Best In Show (or "Best Female In Show") wins and worked as a sheep and cattle herder. She retired from the show ring at the age of ten to successfully raise a liter of seven puppies.

Now pictures of American Collies of today...

http://i38.tinypic.com/2uttil2.jpg

http://www.avondalecollies.com/Lyraclose.jpg
"Lyra" Mjr Ptd Avondale Spiritwind Aurora - a bitch I bred and co-own.

http://www.avondalecollies.com/Sookiebody2yr.jpg

http://www.avondalecollies.com/ellie2yrbody.JPG

Now if you want to see the split between American and European Collies... now here are modern European Collies..

The Collies of Europe are very different than those in the United States and Canada. Although the standard is nearly the same, the British type has changed radically. Some people say that during the first and second World Wars, fanciers from the US imported many of the best Collies from the United Kingdom, in order to keep the breed safe. England and most of Europe was under attack and breeders there feared for the lives of their dogs. At that time, the Collie looked just about the same as those in the US today. We used them to our best advantage in American breeding programs, with the idea that one day Great Britain and Europe would want their foundation stock back.

However, exporting those foundations was a nightmare, as mandatory quarantines of six months and longer hampered the willingness of both the Americans and the British breeders to subject their dogs to such lengthy confinements in a government kennel. So, the UK rebuilt upon the stock that remained in their country. They also found eager fanciers in Europe, since exportation was much less costly from Britain rather than the Americas. The “new” Collie of the British and European communities was a far cry in quality, temperament, type, and structure, and continues in this pattern even today.

I'm not totally sure I agree with this though, because if you look back at pictures European Collies in the 60's and 70's the Collies looked much more like American Collies than the European Collies of today do...

Today, since importing dogs into Europe is much eaiser to do, its getting more and more common for European breeders to import dogs from the US.

Some of the current winning dogs in Europe....

http://www.heirlair.com/Europe_files/image021.gif

http://www.heirlair.com/Europe_files/image018.jpg


Their particular complaints about what is available and winning is fairly obvious to the American collie breeder eye: short, square heads with deep stops, faces that look like the Chow-Chow rather than the Collie; low ears, slanted rather than almond shaped eyes, snipey muzzles, lack of underjaw and finish, very clearly lacking in bone and size and, what you can’t see, horrific temperaments. Remember, the dogs pictured above are ALL current European Champions. Structure has been damaged as well. Most of the European Collies are extremely short backed, with straight fronts and rears, no neck, short, gay tails, and cow hocks. Consequently, the movement suffers with so many problems. The European Collie is ill-equipped to do the work for which it was originally bred... not to mention the HUGE open, soft coats that do not properly protect the Collie. People think American Collies have big coats.. their coats are NOTHING compared to the European Collie.

http://i045.radikal.ru/0804/e6/7a97fb58b59d.jpg
Russian Collie

http://i033.radikal.ru/0806/97/d881a57546a4.jpg
Another Russian Collie

http://i017.radikal.ru/0804/7b/cb07db27aa55.jpg

http://i030.radikal.ru/0806/c7/9e6d6734febe.jpg
European Collies

What a cool thread! I had no idea Collies were so fluffy over seas! I thought ours had a lot of coat. Thanks for sharing!

Very interesting thread.

I need to scan some early pictures from my Dal book, but here are some more notable ones. I personally think this breed has improved a lot since the early 20th century. I think some of the best dogs, judging from photographs, came from the mid 20th century.

I'll update later with better pictures, of dogs I like and don't like. For now, here are some random ones.

Ch. Tally Ho Last of Sunstar (BOB Nat'l Specialty 1931)
http://www.thedca.org/WinnersGallery/1926BOBnew.jpg

Ch. Tally Ho Sirius (BOB Nat'l Specialty 1939)
http://www.thedca.org/WinnersGallery/1939BOBnew.jpg

CH Korcula Midnight Star
Bret D
http://dalmatin-club.ru/pic2/import/..._star_bret.jpg

Ch. Merry Go Round Mach Ten (Top winner from a few years ago)
http://www.bazius.se/photo/boomer.jpg

Ch. TCJ Satins Star Appeal (Top winning dal of today, I like him and I've seen him show a few times)
http://www.tandavadalmatians.com/ima..._Owens_707.jpg

Ch. Panore of Watseka (b. 1969)
http://watsekadals.home.att.net/Pan2.jpg

Ch. Fireman's Freckled Friend (Don't like him as much)
http://www.jlsdals.com/img137.gif

Ch. Lord Jim (very winning and a popular stud choice of the time. I think he looks way too hound like, which is more apparent in other photos I've seen of him)
http://www.jlsdals.com/LordJim.html

Who knew Basset Hounds used to actually be cute and were not cursed with all that saggy skin?

1870's
http://www.basset.net/balogh3.jpg

Today
http://www.bayingbasset.com/clientpics/ralbisweb.jpg


Pugs used to be cute, too! I can't find any photos, but they used to have faces.

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Originally Posted by BC_MoM

Who knew Basset Hounds used to actually be cute and were not cursed with all that saggy skin?

1870's
http://www.basset.net/balogh3.jpg

Today
http://www.bayingbasset.com/clientpics/ralbisweb.jpg


Pugs used to be cute, too! I can't find any photos, but they used to have faces.

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All dogs are cute imho, even pugs and bassets.

They aren't cute when the way they are bred today causes them to have serious health issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lute

What a cool thread! I had no idea Collies were so fluffy over seas! I thought ours had a lot of coat. Thanks for sharing!

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Yep.. I am on a couple Collie breeder forums, much like this place, but they are both based in Europe, so very few people on the forum are from North America.

But the "lack" of coat the american collies have compared to the European collies, is one of the biggest complaints the european breeders have with our dogs... they don't think they have enough coat. I personally could not deal with the coat on a european collie...

Also, another thing pretty much north america is the only place that breeds roughs and smooths together anymore... they used to allow it in europe up until I think the 80's?? then it was changed and they split them off as 2 seperate breeds... so the people on that forum were rather concerned when I posted pics of rough and smooth puppies from the same litter LOL they didn't understand why I would do such a thing LOL

I'll try to find a picture of a European smooth.. they look MUCH more like American smooths.... heads might be slightly different but the size and body structure is very similar smooths over here.. they tend to have pretty solid bodies... completely different from their roughs, even though the standards are the same, except for coat...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Suki Wingy

I need to scan some early pictures from my Dal book, but here are some more notable ones. I personally think this breed has improved a lot since the early 20th century. I think some of the best dogs, judging from photographs, came from the mid 20th century.

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Very interesting bout the Dals! I do not know anything about the breed, but just based on pictures it seems they haven't changed to much over the years...

Will be interested to see the other pictures you post later...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spiritwind

Yep.. I am on a couple Collie breeder forums, much like this place, but they are both based in Europe, so very few people on the forum are from North America.

But the "lack" of coat the american collies have compared to the European collies, is one of the biggest complaints the european breeders have with our dogs... they don't think they have enough coat. I personally could not deal with the coat on a european collie...

Also, another thing pretty much north america is the only place that breeds roughs and smooths together anymore... they used to allow it in europe up until I think the 80's?? then it was changed and they split them off as 2 seperate breeds... so the people on that forum were rather concerned when I posted pics of rough and smooth puppies from the same litter LOL they didn't understand why I would do such a thing LOL

I'll try to find a picture of a European smooth.. they look MUCH more like American smooths.... heads might be slightly different but the size and body structure is very similar smooths over here.. they tend to have pretty solid bodies... completely different from their roughs, even though the standards are the same, except for coat...

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Why did they rule out breeding smooths and roughs together? Did it cause less coat? That would explain our less coated collies in North America.


One breed I have found that has really changed over the years is the German Shepherd Dog. I think it is sickening and wrong the way they bred their rears the way they do now.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...hics/26719.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...n_Grafrath.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...n_Schwaben.jpg

Today-
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...ampion-300.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lute

Why did they rule out breeding smooths and roughs together? Did it cause less coat? That would explain our less coated collies in North America.


One breed I have found that has really changed over the years is the German Shepherd Dog. I think it is sickening and wrong the way they bred their rears the way they do now.

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I honestly have no idea why the split roughs and smooths up into 2 seperate breeds. Its really very odd in my opinion, especially since the 2 standards are the same, except for coat and the european smooths are nothing close to a short haired version of a european rough these days.

Most people really don't feel breeding roughs to smooths affects the coat. There are certain bloodlines in american collies that for atleast the last 50 yrs have only bred roughs (Tartanside collies come to mind).. pure tartanside lines are all roughs and they still don't carry the coat the european dogs do.

Now there are some families in certain American lines that breeders call "Fluffies" and they are typically (thought not always) collies with big, fluffy, soft coats.. which is very incorrect, but still not the same amount of coat the collies over seas have. A rough collie should not have a soft coat!... the european roughs coat is very incorrect... its very soft, open, and fluffy.. it does not keep water off their bodies, instead the soft coat just soaks water up...

I totally agree with you on the GSD! I hate to see the GSD at shows try to walk... I think its very wrong!..

I agree with you, Lute, about the GSD. I really didn't notice how horrible it was until I saw Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Now every time I see a GSD like that, I want to be sick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BC_MoM

I agree with you, Lute, about the GSD. I really didn't notice how horrible it was until I saw Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Now every time I see a GSD like that, I want to be sick.

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What is this Pedigree Dogs Exposed??? I looked it up and found some on it. I can't seem to find the video though.

Spiritwind, what an interesting thread you started! I went through it quickly but I will come back and read it carefully. I didn't know about the long history of breeding collies or that they have different looks in Europe.

I agree with the point that Lute made about the GSD. My mom and I were watching a dog show on the Animal Planet and when the GSD came on, we said to each other "What is wrong with that dog's hips?" We guessed (obviously wrong) that the dog couldn't straighten up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spiritwind

I honestly have no idea why the split roughs and smooths up into 2 seperate breeds. Its really very odd in my opinion, especially since the 2 standards are the same, except for coat and the european smooths are nothing close to a short haired version of a european rough these days.

Most people really don't feel breeding roughs to smooths affects the coat. There are certain bloodlines in american collies that for atleast the last 50 yrs have only bred roughs (Tartanside collies come to mind).. pure tartanside lines are all roughs and they still don't carry the coat the european dogs do.

Now there are some families in certain American lines that breeders call "Fluffies" and they are typically (thought not always) collies with big, fluffy, soft coats.. which is very incorrect, but still not the same amount of coat the collies over seas have. A rough collie should not have a soft coat!... the european roughs coat is very incorrect... its very soft, open, and fluffy.. it does not keep water off their bodies, instead the soft coat just soaks water up...

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I actually just did an essay on this for my English Comp class. From what I understood, people have stated that the Smooths and the Roughs have different personality types and the fact that the workload between the two different coats was different. Smooths were used as drovers and Roughs were used as pastoral guardians. This being said, people felt that there was a large divide between the two varieties that they decided to split them up. Personally, I think this narrowed the gene pool even more and will eventually do more harm than good in the Collie. In all actuality, from what I read it is the ROUGH coat that is recessive to the Smooth coat - if you breed two Roughs together you'll get 100% Roughs, but if you breed 2 Smooths together and they both have the same recessive Rough trait, you may wind up with a few Roughs in your smooth litter.

The European Collies seem to have been outcrossed at one point to a Chow Chow - I do not like the look of them at all. I think that they have too big of a stop and that coat looks neither functional or very easy to maintain. The function of the coat is important, to keep both heat and cold and whisk moisture away while they are doing the job they were bred to do. I prefer the American Collie vs the European Collie anyday.

Now...on to a breed that has changed drastically over the years.
American Cocker - Red Brucie circa 1921
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7042/bkbruciewg1.jpg

Black/White Parti
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4355/30023055rc8.jpg


Can you honestly tell me where in that second photo, it matches the AKC description of a moderately coated dog?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lute

What is this Pedigree Dogs Exposed??? I looked it up and found some on it. I can't seem to find the video though.

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Original thread with before and after pics of various dog breeds:
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=145435

Quote:

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Originally Posted by So-Crafty

From what I understood, people have stated that the Smooths and the Roughs have different personality types and the fact that the workload between the two different coats was different. Smooths were used as drovers and Roughs were used as pastoral guardians. This being said, people felt that there was a large divide between the two varieties that they decided to split them up. Personally, I think this narrowed the gene pool even more and will eventually do more harm than good in the Collie. In all actuality, from what I read it is the ROUGH coat that is recessive to the Smooth coat - if you breed two Roughs together you'll get 100% Roughs, but if you breed 2 Smooths together and they both have the same recessive Rough trait, you may wind up with a few Roughs in your smooth litter.

The European Collies seem to have been outcrossed at one point to a Chow Chow - I do not like the look of them at all. I think that they have too big of a stop and that coat looks neither functional or very easy to maintain. The function of the coat is important, to keep both heat and cold and whisk moisture away while they are doing the job they were bred to do. I prefer the American Collie vs the European Collie anyday.

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I have heard many people claim that roughs and smooths have different personalities, and honestly I have not seen it. I think its more of different personalities based on the individual dog rather than rough vs. smooth. If smooth collies had the kind of temperament over a rough that some people say, a smooth would have been a much better guardian dog than a rough.... Collies in general were just an all around farm dog. Rough or smooth, they all did herding, guarding, droving whatever they were asked to do. Besides that, the split between the rough and smooth collies in europe was done fairly recently in terms of Collie history... just within the last couple decades.

The below text is from this website: Collie Breed History

A point of interest here is that the mother of Ch Christopher's great grandsire, Scott, was a Smooth Collie by the name of "Ch Waite". She was the very first Smooth Collie champion, and thru Ch. Christopher, is an ancestor of all Collies today. Thus there exist no Rough Collie lines in which Smooth Collies do not appear.

But you are correct, rough is recessive and smooth is dominat. Rough x Rough will give you 100% roughs... smooth x smooth you CAN possibly get roughs and smooths.... if both parents are rough factored (carry the recessive rough gene).... my current litter is a rough factored smooth x rough factored smooth and all the puppies are smooths.... again, if you breed rough x smooth you can get rough puppies IF the smooth parent is rough factored. If one smooth parent is pure for smooth (2 dominat smooth genes) all pups will be smooth.

The different between the american collie vs. european collie is more than the stop and coat though... the european collies are very short backed, which throws off their movement, they have straight fronts and rears and they and are cow hocked, and lack any bone and substance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by So-Crafty

Now...on to a breed that has changed drastically over the years.
American Cocker - Red Brucie circa 1921
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7042/bkbruciewg1.jpg

Black/White Parti
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4355/30023055rc8.jpg


Can you honestly tell me where in that second photo, it matches the AKC description of a moderately coated dog?

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Along with the coat difference in cockers.. their heads have changed, muzzles are much shorter than they were originally, which makes it harder for them to pick up any lager birds...

Spiritwind - it almost seems as if they use the rouse of a heavy coat to mask those features in their dogs and anyone untrained may or may not see it. I have not really looked at European Collies and to my relatively untrained eye, I did not see those features, however, upon closer inspection I find that you are completely right. The bone structure appears quite finer. They almost have a Sheltie-esque appearance in their facial features. There is one that I found that seems like a too-tall Sheltie in appearance. Through some of my website browsing, I did find a few British Collies that appear to have more substance, but it is only on the younger dogs as if people are trying to change the appearance of the breed to a more substancial dog or have had outcrosses to American bloodlines. Though I do not see the eye of the European/British Collie's appearing anything like the eye of the American Collie. Why is this? Did European Collies have the same difficulty with CEA as their American cousins?

There is more to the American Cocker than just changing the coat, which is one of my biggest gripes. The Cocker was like the poor man's hunting dog and he was supposed to be agile, quick and merry with a coat that would easily cast away brambles and burrs. However, the dogs I see today from breeders are showing stubby noses and the breed is becoming (IMHO) a toy dog, rather than a sporting dog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by So-Crafty

Spiritwind - it almost seems as if they use the rouse of a heavy coat to mask those features in their dogs and anyone untrained may or may not see it. I have not really looked at European Collies and to my relatively untrained eye, I did not see those features, however, upon closer inspection I find that you are completely right. The bone structure appears quite finer. They almost have a Sheltie-esque appearance in their facial features. There is one that I found that seems like a too-tall Sheltie in appearance. Through some of my website browsing, I did find a few British Collies that appear to have more substance, but it is only on the younger dogs as if people are trying to change the appearance of the breed to a more substancial dog or have had outcrosses to American bloodlines. Though I do not see the eye of the European/British Collie's appearing anything like the eye of the American Collie. Why is this? Did European Collies have the same difficulty with CEA as their American cousins?

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I don't know that they are actually using the coat to hide faults, but it does work out that way... however there are still pleanty of american rough collies whose faults are hidden by their coat. A good groomer can really hide faults and bring out virtues!!.. thats a good thing about smooths! You can't hide structural faults!

Now the european collies are smaller, based on their standard - they are 2 inches shorter. However in recent years there have been lines of american collies, that have produced dogs that are MUCH smaller.... I personally prefer dogs on the larger end of the standard, still in the standard but the larger end of it... though I do have a couple bitches that are barely 21" tall... north american breed standard is 22-24 for bitches... 24-26 for males.

It is getting more common for some european breeders to import dogs from the US. I sent a dog over to Finland earlier this year.... to a breeder who was working with american lines.

The eye set/placement is different in european collies than in american, I think thats is the main reason the expression is different and it gives a totally different look.... CEA is pretty wide spread in the breed, its been around since the very beginning... Its seen in collies all over the world....

Just for an extra FYI... European Shelties look nothing like American Shelties either... they have a similar look to the collies over there... different head styles -- more stop, different expression because of the eye placement and shape... I know some people who took their multiple BIS winning sheltie bitch to Crufts several years ago and the breeders over there at the show treated them like dirt....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by So-Crafty

There is more to the American Cocker than just changing the coat, which is one of my biggest gripes. The Cocker was like the poor man's hunting dog and he was supposed to be agile, quick and merry with a coat that would easily cast away brambles and burrs. However, the dogs I see today from breeders are showing stubby noses and the breed is becoming (IMHO) a toy dog, rather than a sporting dog.

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Yeah, I've noticed these things with the Cockers as well!...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spiritwind

I don't know that they are actually using the coat to hide faults, but it does work out that way... however there are still pleanty of american rough collies whose faults are hidden by their coat. A good groomer can really hide faults and bring out virtues!!.. thats a good thing about smooths! You can't hide structural faults!

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I know that some groomers can work magic, but those coats are just insane! They kind of also remind me of those Old English Sheepdogs (the grey and white ones).

Quote:

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It is getting more common for some european breeders to import dogs from the US. I sent a dog over to Finland earlier this year.... to a breeder who was working with american lines. The eye set/placement is different in european collies than in american, I think thats is the main reason the expression is different and it gives a totally different look.... CEA is pretty wide spread in the breed, its been around since the very beginning... Its seen in collies all over the world....

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Isn't the importation a lot simpler than it used to be as well? Like I said, I've seen a lot more Collies in some photos with a nicer headpiece, but upon further inspection they have had outcrosses to American lines.

Quote:

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I know some people who took their multiple BIS winning sheltie bitch to Crufts several years ago and the breeders over there at the show treated them like dirt....

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Now that's just a shame. That's what I hate about [some] breeders. They should be all about the breed and what it was bred to do and looks should come second. And good for those people that they made it to Crufts! I would LOVE to go to Crufts some day just as a spectator!

You said you're on other Collie forums? Can you send me a link? I'd love to join some breed-specific forums!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BC_MoM

I agree with you, Lute, about the GSD. I really didn't notice how horrible it was until I saw Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Now every time I see a GSD like that, I want to be sick.

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I agree with both of you about the GSD. Being a GSD owner I never buy from show stock for this reason. All my dogs are east German, sometimes west German lines. These rears on the ground make me sick also. Everybody seems to be out to see if they can get the most angulated dog. I blame the judges for even looking at these dogs, let alone give them best in show.
We now have people breeding clownish pandas to make matters worse, or whites, which go totally against the standard. At least they are not recognized in the ring so they might fade away soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by So-Crafty

Isn't the importation a lot simpler than it used to be as well? Like I said, I've seen a lot more Collies in some photos with a nicer headpiece, but upon further inspection they have had outcrosses to American lines.

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Yes, for the most part it is MUCH easier to import dogs into europe. It depends on what country (the UK still has some tougher regulations) because each country has their own regulations, but when I sent the one dog to Finland, all he had to be was current on his rabies vaccine, be microchipped, have tape worm meds no more than 14 days before the flight, and have a vet exam no more than 24hrs before the flight. You also have to have your regular health certificate (like when flying within the US) no more than 10 days old and a bilingual health certificate approved by the USDA no more than 30 days old....

Some countries require rabies titers, Finland did not. I had to drive him 6hrs south of here to the Atlanta Airport though to get a direct flight out of the US (other wise he would have changed planes 2 times before leaving the US). Which flew him from Atlanta into Frankfurt, Germany -- with a 2 hr lay over, where he got examined by a vet again, before getting on the plane to Helsinki, Finland.

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Originally Posted by shepgirl

Everybody seems to be out to see if they can get the most angulated dog. I blame the judges for even looking at these dogs, let alone give them best in show.

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I totally agree! See this is the reason why I say the reason certain breeds have changed is not JUST because of breeders, but because of judges. Judges have a HUGE impact on what dogs are bred, and how they are bred. If judges did not award dogs with these exagerated faults (like GSD or Pekes or Bulldogs) that do not meet the original breed standard, people wouldn't breed them!....

People see a GSD that is so over angulated in the rear that its walking on its hocks, and it wins, and keeps winning, taking major wins, group placements or group wins and so if its a male, people breed bitches to him because he is winning a lot and they want to win. Its fads that change breeds! If judges judged to the standards and not the fads of the time, not as many people would breed these dogs with these over exagerated faults.....If people got kicked out of the ring for it, people would change it!.... JMO

Have to agree withyou on that one SpiritWind...maybe the judges should exclude these extremes from the ring. Handing them best of breed only intensifies the need to breed them even more....vicious cycle.

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Originally Posted by shepgirl

Have to agree withyou on that one SpiritWind...maybe the judges should exclude these extremes from the ring. Handing them best of breed only intensifies the need to breed them even more....vicious cycle.

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Totally agree. We should consider the dogs' needs a lot more when breeding.
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Alexandra from W2C