the presidential debates

**joycenalex** · 09-30-2004, 09:51 PM

i watched, i listened, i have an opinion, what's yours?

**christa** · 09-30-2004, 10:06 PM

All in all, pretty boring. No surprise.

I can't believe that Kerry let himself "flip-flop" during this 90 minute debate. (OK, maybe I can believe it.) In the beginning, Sadam was not a threat and he even laid out reasons why not . . . by the end, he was a threat and the President was right to take him down.

There is so much to say about this debate, but I'm tired. That wore me out! I'm sure there'll be lots of posts to read in the morning!

**Soledad** · 09-30-2004, 10:36 PM

No, what Kerry said was that Saddam was a threat and that he must be disarmed. This does not require war. It does require the threat of force, which is what he gave the President. It was not a vote for the war, but for the President to threaten war if Saddam didn't do what he needed to do.

Kerry's position is the same it's always been. Bush has made a mess, Kerry has an actual plan for how to fix it.

As for the debate, Kerry won it hands down. Bush looked angry, aggitated and annoyed to be there. He was overly defensive, sometimes confused and bumbling and just repeated the same lines over and over. He offered no new plans. Just more of the same. Four more years of this crap.

I can't believe anyone would vote for that.

**Lady's Human** · 09-30-2004, 10:46 PM

Kerry's "I have a plan" with no substantive points behind it reminds me of Nixon's secret plan to get us out of Vietnam. By 1974 it was still a secret.

**Soledad** · 09-30-2004, 10:52 PM

And what about Bush's plan? Did you hear any details about that? I didn't. Just more of the same.

Great. More soldiers die each month. The economy is still in the gutter.

That's "leadership"???

**lizzielou742** · 09-30-2004, 10:57 PM

Kerry wins.

I can finally get a good night's sleep tonight.

That is all.

**caseysmom** · 10-01-2004, 12:03 AM

I was pleasantly surprised with Kerry's performance. Before tonight I was voting for him simply because he was not Bush, I thought he came across as strong and Bush looked like an angry child.

**christa** · 10-01-2004, 06:53 AM

I have a hard time believing ANYTHING that Kerry says. Sorry. He's too slick. He sounds great, like a real leader, he's definitely got the "look" down . . . but as far as substance, there's nothing there for me.

Soledad, I can't believe that ANYONE would believe that Saddam would just give up or that we could just walk into Iraq & ask him to surrender. How would you suggest that we should have taken him? And he has a plan how to fix it? I never have really heard his plan . . . ??? Enlighten me?

I agree, Kerry won via points . . . But Bush won on SUBSTANCE which is more important to me.

**dukedogsmom** · 10-01-2004, 07:07 AM

Seeing how Bush has screwed up these past four years has me voting for Kerry. I won't be fooled twice.

**lizzielou742** · 10-01-2004, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by christa
I have a hard time believing ANYTHING that Kerry says. Sorry. He's too slick. He sounds great, like a real leader, he's definitely got the "look" down . . . but as far as substance, there's nothing there for me.

Soledad, I can't believe that ANYONE would believe that Saddam would just give up or that we could just walk into Iraq & ask him to surrender. How would you suggest that we should have taken him? And he has a plan how to fix it? I never have really heard his plan . . . ??? Enlighten me?

I'm sorry, Christa, you're my buddy, but I have to say I disagree with your views on this one. If you don't know John Kerry's plan for Iraq, you should go to http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/plan_to...ce_in_iraq.pdf and read up about it.

I for one, would never make a decision about who I was voting for without researching both candidates.

John Kerry said many times last night that Bush should have gone back to the UN and tried further negotiations with Saddam before he used force. Bush's war was pre-emptive. Saddam didn't surrender because he didn't have any WMDs. Did you read the 9/11 Commission report? We can't just start going into countries and taking them over. That's not what America stands for, to me at least.

Bush looked unprepared, weak and frustrated, whereas Kerry looked strong, charismatic and decisive. Bush did not outline one single specific plan. Bush has a record of failure after failure, and the American people are worse off than they were in 2000 because of it. Kerry laid out specific plans for his vision of America, and gave the American people hope that we can finally succeed in Iraq, and bring our troops home.

I don't know about you, but my tuition went up 22% while I was in college (from fall 1999 - fall 2003). I now owe $65,000 to the federal government. Minimum wage has not increased since 1997, when I was 16. It's still $5.15 an hour. No one can afford to live on $5.15 an hour. The Bush administration is the only administration since Herbert Hoover's in the 1930s in which total employment decreased. After I graduated, I couldn't find a job in the field I went to college for (arts organization management) so now I'm a secretary. It was the only halfway professional job I could find - and I'm still looking. Most of my friends had a hard time finding jobs after graduation, too. I have a friend who recently graduated with a double major in political science and sociology, and now works the Clinique counter at Dillard's. Why? Because there aren't as many good jobs out there as there used to be. Meanwhile, I have friends in Iraq, and my mother got laid off from her job at a non-profit community center because they couldn't afford to pay her. There are two pieces of legislation in front of the Senate and the House of Representatives right now that would reinstate the draft for EVERYONE between the ages of 18 and 26. Males and females. Bush will have to do it if he gets re-elected. Kerry won't have to, because he's going to bring other countries in (so we won't be 90% of the troops anymore) to help pull us out of Iraq completely.

I could go on and on about the issues on which I disagree with Bush - the environment, homeland security (or our lack of it right now), healthcare...

Do any of those things resonate with you?

**Logan** · 10-01-2004, 08:18 AM

Bush has made a mess, Kerry has an actual plan for how to fix it.

I did find it humorous that he wouldn't say what his plan was last night, but instead pointed us to his website! Why not lay it all out? That's what we were waiting for!

**lizzielou742** · 10-01-2004, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Logan
I did find it humorous that he wouldn't say what his plan was last night, but instead pointed us to his website! Why not lay it all out? That's what we were waiting for!

Because you can't lay out everything in two minutes. Bush didn't even mention a single plan. At least Kerry went over his as much as he could, and told us where to find more information about specific details.

Tell me again what Bush's plan to get out of Iraq is? Tell me again when my friends are coming home?

**christa** · 10-01-2004, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by lizzielou742
Do any of those things resonate with you?

Liz, I've heard this stuff until I can't see straight. I've avoided these political boards until now because they always seem to be one sided.

First of all, I HAVE researched both candidates . . . more so than just their own campaign websites. I vote based on my own convictions, my beliefs, my principles. I don’t vote thoughtlessly, as you imply.

I know that Bush was wrong about the WMD’s . . . but I also know that Saddam had the capabilities and I feel safer knowing that he is out of power and sitting in a prison cell. Besides, how can you say that we were wrong to free the people of Iraq? They have been living under the rule of a tyrant. A man that only knows violence. Rape rooms, torture chambers . . . how can you believe that what we did was a mistake? That’s basically what Kerry is saying? Am I wrong?

Things are much different than they were in 2000. We were attacked . . . but believe me when I say that things will be much worse if we start letting other countries dictate how we protect ourselves. (which is what Kerry says he will do)

And all this about Kerry bringing other countries in . . . OK, first of all, I’m sure that’s what he wants. Who’s to say that it will actually happen? We don’t know what the future holds. He may or may not get other countries to join our alliance. You don’t know that he will! You don’t know that he’ll do anything that he says because his record stinks!

Bush didn’t lay out his plan very well during the debate, I will admit. But he did state more than once, that he planned to do the only thing he could do . . . continue to train Iraqi troops & police until they’re ready to stand on their own.

About the draft: I’ve read countless articles about this . . . and from what I can see, it’s a scare tactic headed by two of the most liberal members of Congress. Rep. Charlie Rangel and Sen. Fritz Hollings.

"It's absolutely false that anyone in the administration is considering reinstating the draft" –Rumsfeld

Bush even stated last night that it would be a voluntary army.

I think that a lot of people would be surprised to hear that proposal is coming from democrats!

I think we’re total opposites on ANY political issues, Liz, but you’re still my bud.

Let’s not get too ugly about this.

**christa** · 10-01-2004, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by lizzielou742
Because you can't lay out everything in two minutes. Bush didn't even mention a single plan. At least Kerry went over his as much as he could, and told us where to find more information about specific details.

Tell me again what Bush's plan to get out of Iraq is? Tell me again when my friends are coming home?

Bush's Plan: Continue to train Iraqi troops & police . . . until they can stand on their own. It's the only thing we can do! If we left them in 6 months (as Kerry has stated that he will do), Iraq will fall and all will be lost.

We ALL have family and friends fighting in Iraq. Those people over there are adults. They went and signed up to protect their country and that's what they're doing. They are fighting for freedom.

So many people don't support the troops because they're not supporting the cause. It's sad really.

**lizzielou742** · 10-01-2004, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by christa
I don’t vote thoughtlessly, as you imply.

Please don't think I am implying that!

I know you wouldn't throw your vote away. What I am responding to is what you said here:

Originally posted by christa
And he has a plan how to fix it? I never have really heard his plan . . . ??? Enlighten me?

I was trying to enlighten you.

----

Originally posted by christa
So many people don't support the troops because they're not supporting the cause. It's sad really.

I hope that wasn't directed towards me, because if so that would hurt my feelings. I support our troops. I want them out of harm's way. We all do. That's not the issue. The issue is the best way to go about getting them out of Iraq. I don't know of anyone who would want a long-term occupation of Iraq. At some point, we have to stop being 90% of the troops over there. We cannot continue on that path for long - our country doesn't have the means.

What bothers me about the "support our troops" thing is that people just slap a yellow ribbon magnet on the back of their car and say "I support the troops," without actually volunteering/donating to anything that would help the troops. I volunteer on John Kerry's campaign because I believe under his leadership our troops will be safer. Like Kerry said last night, there are troops without body armor over there, and humvees without armor. It breaks my heart.

I think our main difference of opinion lies here: I believe that the Iraqis and the rest of the world want us out of Iraq. I do not think it is the right thing to occupy another country. I think if we follow John Kerry's plan to transfer power back to the Iraqis, the world will be a safer place.

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Originally posted by christa
Besides, how can you say that we were wrong to free the people of Iraq? They have been living under the rule of a tyrant. A man that only knows violence. Rape rooms, torture chambers . . . how can you believe that what we did was a mistake? That’s basically what Kerry is saying? Am I wrong?

I believe you are.

Kerry is not trying to say that stopping Saddam's torture was a mistake. He has never said that. But Bush told us Saddam was taken out of power because he wouldn't disarm........because he didn't have anything to disarm. As a result of our invasion, the people of Iraq were going to be freed, right? They are not free right now. They're living under our rule instead of Saddam's. Agreed, they are better off with him out of power, but they are not yet a free country. Sure, the Iraqis are better off without those things happening to them, but their people are still dying. Osama bin Laden is still out there. We are making more enemies every day in the Middle East. We're giving more and more terrorists a reason to hate us each moment we're in that country.

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Agreed - let's not let this turn ugly between us.

We see things differently, and what's so great about America is that that's OK. We can go to the election sites on Nov. 2nd and vote for who we support.....too bad for me there's no way Kerry's winning Kentucky, right?