Fahrenheit 911 - For those who've seen it

[jonza]

Oh dear! Now we're getting into a pointless political rant again. Why can't I keep my big mouth shut! Well Richard, at least it's nice to know that we can give you a good laugh, even if it is such a serious subject.

OK, let's all get pedantic here, there seems to be plenty of hairsplitting and nit picking going on already.

HEY EVERYONE!!
I got you all to go to war for me. MORONS!

Don't say that too loudly, it's uncomfortably close to the truth!
(Although I don't regard Americans as being morons)

What a pompous and arrogant statement.

Well you should know Richard, you appear to be quite good at making them too.

Our "war" wasn't started by us …

Your second one (third one?) wasn't started by Saddam either. (What's the difference between "war" and war by the way?)

The long term effects of the war we took to Afghanistan and Iraq look to be beneficial in the long run.

That's very difficult to see from outside America at the moment. Beneficial to Halliburton perhaps? I hope you're right, and that it will be beneficial to everyone, but find it doubtful.

Patriotism?
Infantile disease??

It was nationalism Einstein called an infantile disease, I don't know what his views on patriotism were. (So who's splitting hairs now?)

… but when the US, the Brits, the Aussies and ANYONE else who had the bits to join us made the move …

Don't forget to mention the Danes! They were so proud of their participation at first, but seem to have cooled down quite a lot since.

FOR THE RECORD..
Invasion- an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder.

There are a couple more interesting definitions here:
A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
An intrusion or encroachment.


… and regarding "Fahrenheit 9/11 is Having "Devastating" Impact on Military Morale":

If the article is correct it is very disturbing. But is it Michael Moore who's single-handedly to blame? Only Michael Moore? He alone? It's nice to have a scapegoat isn't it. Perhaps the administration should have foreseen such reactions and been a bit more open and honest about the reasons for the war from the very beginning.
Perhaps the administration should generally be more open and honest about a lot of things than they are being. What a terrible quandary those soldiers must be in. So sad that such a great nation should treat their forces in such an irresponsible way.

The article seems pretty biased (as all political comments are), but I did notice one thing in my naivety.

Moore has abused the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has.

As I understand it, The First Amendment goes like this:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Could someone please explain to me how he's "abusing" that?

The other article on the "Fifty-nine deceits" is as far as I can see typically prejudiced political ranting and raving, some of it probably true. It is also self contradictory at times, and I doubt the veracity of quite a bit of it. But that's not the significance of the movie. If it makes people think about things from another perspective instead of just swallowing propaganda indiscriminately, then it has a valuable function. If it makes people pause and question things, to make them want to seek the truth behind the political "spin", then it has been productive. If it can show the world that America means it when it says it is a land of democracy and free speech.

I think America should be proud of the fact that it has citizens like Michael Moore who have the "bits" to say what they feel needs to be said in a repressive political climate. So there!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza
If it makes people pause and question things, to make them want to seek the truth behind the political "spin", then it has been productive.

DUDE!!

Like Right On!!!

Just a little tidbit about Freedom of Speech.


Pompous and arrogant???

Why, Yes I will admit to that one....Of course, you can have all the pomp and arrogance you'd like when you pomp and arrogance about your own political views.. I have a problem when a person
adjusts the truth to fit their own agenda. And I love to goad the people who with-out-a-doubt subscribe to someone's twisted truth.

Pompous and arrogant??

I think I'll put that one on my business card....

Actually I think lending a submarine and a destroyer to a war effort qualifies as P and A, especially in a desert war. But I will remember the Danes, who were so hot on the idea of lending support to us, then cooled off.

If you put wheels on a submarine you might be able to use it as and armored personnel carrier....On second thought forget it....

Does the line, 'As funny as a screen door on a submarine' tickle you?

Our war....first, second or third.....

DUDE...we had about 3,000 people turned to little pieces on 9/11.. what is the number you need in order to take action??
I get the idea that some people snickered a little bit when we took it on the chin.

Well,
You tread on us, we tread back...

By the way, YOU seem so adamant about us kicking Saddam's
Arse to a hole in the ground you seem to be a little glum about it.
What's the problem??

I'm not a fan of dictators myself.....Saddam was just road kill on the way to getting rid of trash like that.

One thing that I do enjoy is the rhetoric that comes out of the American bashing...Do me a favor......

Today, get rid of all the things that us Americans have provided to the rest of the world....Velcro, polio vaccine, bad J-lo movies,
the phone, television, cars, airplanes and some other basic BS that you take for granted. computers, circuit boards, Lance Armstrong, David Hasselhoff...

Get the picture???

If my chest thumping-God Bless America attitude is a problem, remember, It's my guaranteed right under the First Amendment.
And that is my truth, not some edited, watered down waste of celluloid that masquerades as the truth....

Now I am not to sure about the politics of Denmark, It seems to be a nice place to live, a little below my radar and probably quite peace loving.....



I shudder to think of what would have happened had 4 airplanes decided to land on your soil...

In a typical myopic view of world politics people can't see what the benefits are of the American War against Terrorism is.

You harbor terrorism, we come out and clean your clock...

(OOPS! there I go again......Being brash, opinionated, and honest....)

I particularly don't want my city to be dirty bombed......neither do I want to see Oslo, Copenhagen or any other place on the planet treated that way.

GWB lied to us, because he was lied to....I mean when Vlad Putin calls you up to tell you that Saddam is a rotten so and so - you know things are bad.....And that wasn't too smart because Russia lost some Megabucks when the Saddamster went belly up.

Damn,
Being a loud mouthed long winded moron has it's disadvantages.
Hold on a second I need a Pepsi....

That's another thing you can shun as an American Corporate Entity.......Just don't Eff with Martha Stewart. O.K.?

There, I feel better.....

For my parting shot across your bow....(now you can use the submarine.....)

The SPIN...

Some of us are proud to have MM here in the US...Of course if he was polluting the airwaves in good old Denmark things may be a bit different......What do you have in the way of 'First Amendment'
right over there??? Being a heathen moron I just can't find anything relating to the subject!!

Let me explain the "SPIN" to you, Since we invented it we understand it more.....You know, sometime things get lost in the translation......

Spin = the twist you want to put on a news story. Just like the dog that chases it's tail you get dizzy and fall to the ground winded. Until it becomes time to chase your tail again....

Again.......I'll apologize to you and all the people I have offended with my rants about politics, terrorism and world affairs.

It's not easy being Red, White and Blue.

I say what I feel and I feel what I say. I'm sorry if you disagree or are offended by the content....and don't worry, If you ever need the HELP of the United States of America we won't hesitate.

You know, after all the stupid, dirty, illegal things we did in the past and across the world in the past, We still shine when we have to.

Best Wishes to you and yours!






can that sticking the tongue out icon at the end of your missive be perceived as infantile????

Just kidding.

[gini]

Oh my, Richard.

Last Sunday you were out on the beach of Venice - with some very beautiful women having a great time.

This Sunday you are in front of your computer jousting with Jonza.

Which is more fun?

[slick]

Originally posted by gini
Oh my, Richard.

Last Sunday you were out on the beach of Venice - with some very beautiful women having a great time.

This Sunday you are in front of your computer jousting with Jonza.

Which is more fun?

Not to mention that yellow bikini he saw....... Talk about "blinded by the light" !!!!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by gini
Oh my, Richard.

Last Sunday you were out on the beach of Venice - with some very beautiful women having a great time.

This Sunday you are in front of your computer jousting with Jonza.

Which is more fun?

More fun.......more fun.....women, of course......But sometimes you have to put the women aside and do the testosterone thing...

Jonza is a good sport about it.

We have our moments and everything is forgotten....

Slick,

Now tell me that I have to defend the fact that we have the most beautiful women in the world here in Southern California..

Yellow bikini.....hmmmmm.....yellow bikini........

Was I drooling???

[DJFyrewolf36]

This thread has gotten my unnoficial *Best Thread to Lurk in* award!

I have no comments, other than:

Dang it, it is hilarious to listen to people banter!! Especially about politics

[WilsonVB]

Hi Richard

Wilson here.

Just got through reading all your nonsense regarding Iraq and propaganda and yadda yadda yadda….

“In December 2002, Bush seized 800 incriminating pages of the 2,000-page Iraqi report to the U.N., pages that contained the names of U.S. companies that supplied arms to Saddam, including details on weapons, dual-use technologies, and materials of mass destruction. That censored report, which rightfully belongs to the victims, not Bush, constitutes a major piece of evidence for any impartial war crimes tribunal.”
From one article Richard, but if you’d like to read more…
“More information trickled onto the back pages of “The New York Times” and “The Washington Post”. The main facts are no longer in dispute. In violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 (which outlaws chemical warfare), the Reagan-Bush administration authorized the sale of poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, from anthrax to bubonic plague, throughout the '80s. In 1982, while Saddam Hussein constructed his machinery of war, Reagan and Bush removed Iraq from the State Department list of terrorist states.”
http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/time.html
I think you’re suffering from “The Boy in the Bubble Syndrome” Richard if you believe for one moment that America “is above” using chemical weapons anytime anywhere it pleases. And the hypocrisy of this verifiable fact in the face of your (and many other Americans) criticism of Iraq is anything but hypocrisy I’d entertain your explanation.

“Become familiar with Agent Orange and the Health of Our Vietnam Veterans”
http://www1.va.gov/agentorange

The US Biological Warfare in Korea

http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/mbc.htm

From cluster munitions to depleted uranium artillery shells, to chemical and biological warfare and of course not to forget the use of nuclear arms against a civilian population, no nation can hold a candle to the United States.

You might want to pull your head out of the sand sometime soon here Richard or I’m going to have to give you a history lesson you won’t like much.

[gini]

Hmmm, WilsonVB..........why is your style so familiar?

[jonza]

Well Richard, it's probably lucky for the rest of the world that we're not politicians (or Prime Ministers or Presidents)! My friends down in our local pub used to call me "Fowlie of the F.O." (The Foreign Office). This was possibly meant ironically, probably due to my occasional(?) lack of tact or sense of diplomacy.

There is another interesting aspect of this whole thing. As a kid I LOVED America (I still think it's a fantastic country). Living in the forties and fifties in drab old England, it was the dream place to go. I used to cut adverts out of American magazines and stick them on the bedroom wall. Anything American was great, The Marlboro Man, white walled tires, you name it. We used to follow the American GI's around and try to get invited to the PX (I think it was). A wonderful, colorful world full of Zippo lighters, multi colored plastic transistor radios and other such unattainable goodies. How sad that America has lost so much respect and is now so reviled over large parts of the world. So sad. This isn't an attack on America, it's an attack on the present administration. I'm disappointed. America DOES need a change!

But we shouldn't turn this into an "argument" now should we! (We are on Pet Talk after all). I'd prefer to see it as "jousting" as Gini so aptly put it. At least she didn't say we were "scrapping" or "bickering" or "brawling". Jousting is much more civilized isn't it, almost chivalrous!

So here we go again, though I must admit it's a little bit like trying to have a discussion with a brick wall:

"I have a problem when a person adjusts the truth to fit their own agenda".
My goodness! … you must have a massive problem with George and Dick and all the others in the White House! Not to mention the overwhelming evidence of their obsessive secrecy.
"Subscribing to someone's twisted truth?" You want that, subscribe to the White House.

"By the way, YOU seem so adamant about us kicking Saddam's Arse to a hole in the ground you seem to be a little glum about it. What's the problem??"
You just don't understand do you. Or perhaps you don't WANT to understand. The problem is about lies and deceit and manipulation of the truth, not to mention gigantic doses of hypocrisy.

"DUDE...we had about 3,000 people turned to little pieces on 9/11.. what is the number you need in order to take action??
I get the idea that some people snickered a little bit when we took it on the chin."
You've got no idea what you're talking about or who you're talking to. I've got all the live news on that and the fantastic documentary made by the two French brothers on tape. We must NEVER forget what those primitive savages did, I think these programs should be repeated regularly, so no one can ever forget the horror and injustice of it. Of course it was an act of war, and HAD to lead to retaliation.

"Well, You tread on us, we tread back"
I don't tread on anyone. That wasn't a threat again was it?

“If my chest thumping-God Bless America attitude is a problem, remember, It's my guaranteed right under the First Amendment.
And that is my truth, not some edited, watered down waste of celluloid that masquerades as the truth …"
Then how come Michael Moore is (quote from your link): "abusing the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has" for doing exactly the same thing as you are? Perhaps your "chest thumping-God Bless America attitude" is hurting YOUR credibility too. The comment sounds a bit too much like hypocrisy to me.

"can that sticking the tongue out icon at the end of your missive be perceived as infantile????"
Ha, great! I just thought a smiley might lighten up the message a bit, I hadn't even noticed that he stuck his tongue out! I'd do it again though!

… and finaly, I still can't understand your sarcasm concerning the Danish submarine. The US used them too didn't they? Here's an even better one for you. They sent a snow plow to Saudi Arabia (by mistake they said), but apparently it came in extremely useful. Pushing sand around or something. Bit embarrassing though. You should be able to get a cheap laugh out of that. Tell all your friends how stupid the Danes are. Isn't that how you usually get your laughs, making fun of people who are trying to help you? It's not a very good idea in the long run though.


By the way, sorry we've hijacked your thread Soledad, hope you have found it entertaining at least!

[lbaker]

WilsonVB, Gini said "familiar". I say transparent. Jonza and I have much in common, politically wise, but it's not quite the vitriolic spewing you appear of which to be so fond. I can appreciate the differences we have here - Jonza, Richard & I - but don't appreciate the personal uglyness you sprout. I CAN take you out..

[WilsonVB]

lbaker

I simply quoted articles from newspapers and the Internet!

If you don't like the truth about America you'd best join Richard in the litterbox searching for something that smells better than the truth you both don't like to confront.

Isn't it time America grew up?

[WilsonVB]

Hello everyone!

Millions upon millions of people vehemently expressed their disapproval of the Bush administrations decision to invade Iraq. Bush nor the Senate nor Congress listened to the protests of neither thousands in the streets of America nor millions around the world. ‘After the fact’ a preponderance of evidence clearly establishes that the rationale cited for this pre-emptive military action was based on faulty inaccurate and egregiously “misinterpreted” data. Data that some have characterized as having been manipulated to exaggerate the “urgency” (to quote President Bush) of the need to militarily disarm Saddam Hussein and prevent the proliferation of WMDs (Weapons of Mass Destruction).

What we do know with considerable surety is that one-year after the invasion, “evidence” provided the United Nations in a summary presented by Colin Powel to the Security Council has been established as entirely false if not intentionally misleading.

We know that after the investigation of the 9/11 atrocity that there is not now nor ever was a credible link between Al Qeada and Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship.

We know that overwhelming anecdotal evidence exists suggesting links between Bush petroleum interests and the Bin Laden family existed prior to September 11/2001 and that official airport flight records support the contention that private Saudi flights left the United States under Whitehouse authority while all other private and commercial air traffic had been suspended by the FAA.

We know that alleged “stockpiles” of WMDs have not been found and every indication suggests that neither the invading U.S. military nor the Untied States itself was ever under any existing ‘threat’ given the presumed availability of chemical biological and nuclear weapons such stockpiles would have presented. Quite simply, there has been no conclusive evidence supporting this contention in any way shape or form.

To the contrary, the people of the United States have witnessed the evisceration of the twelfth and fourteenth amendments by the PATRIOT ACT and the Whitehouse continues to urge greater development of even more “security” cabinets and departments. The Bush administration has demonstrated its disdain for international law while having cited that very same international law in legitimizing the “need” for immediate military action against Iraq.

Many folk aren’t ‘connected’ to the WWW (World Wide Web) and rely solely upon information conveyed through nationally televised news broadcasts and major daily newspapers in the United States for their sense of “what’s going on in the world”.

The New York Times has published an admission that it presented “unverified” and as it turns out absolutely false information regarding Iraq’s pursuit of weapons-grade Uranium and “centrifuge” components used in enriching plutonium to weapons grade material. In fact to their credit the editors of the New York Times have admitted to a lengthy list of misleading and quite plainly, “false” news reports that may have influenced Americans to erroneous conclusions regarding the purported Iraqi weapons programs and weapons stockpiles.

The Washington Post has never forthrightly offered a similar admission, however there exists an overwhelming preponderance of evidence supporting the contention that the Washington Post’s reports were similarly unreliable.

America has lived through the shame of Regan and North’s ‘deal’ with Iranians to supply money and weapons to the Contras in Nicaragua. America has lived with the legacy of lies perpetrated by Richard Nixon’s Watergate and Lyndon Johnson’s policies during the “Bright and Shining Lie” of the Viet Nam era.

If anything, even if Michael Moore’s “Fahrenheit 9/11” is as some have described it a clumsy ill conceived and poorly presented “shlockumentary” that plays “loose and free” with the facts surrounding the Bush administration, it does invite serious questions. Questions regarding the Bush family’s relationship to the Saudis and the ‘rationale’ behind America’s change in policy from a nation that defended itself in the face of aggression to a nation prepared to prosecute invasion on highly questionable grounds.

America has suffered at the hands of the Bush administration and the greater suffering is and ought to be felt by the people of America. Is there any reason of any kind to believe anything this administration tells its own people?

[lbaker]

What you are saying is NOT my issue here. Much of what you are saying I truly agree with. My issue is the personal slurring of another PetTalker that I happen to be fond of.. not because of politics or "speechifying" but because of the honest care we are SUPPOSED to have here. GET IT?

"join Richard in the litterbox"
Now THAT'S an intellegent statement!!

[slick]

Originally posted by lbaker
What you are saying is NOT my issue here. Much of what you are saying I truly agree with. My issue is the personal slurring of another PetTalker that I happen to be fond of.. not because of politics or "speechifying" but because of the honest care we are SUPPOSED to have here. GET IT?

"join Richard in the litterbox"
Now THAT'S an intellegent statement!!

Forget it Laurie. Some people will never GET IT!
Wilson, with all due respect, Richard is a friend of many people here and when you insult him, you are insulting us too! I agree that everyone was a right to his/her own opinion but it can be expressed in a tactful manner.

You've made suggestions that he lives in a bubble and has his head stuck in the sand; if you were to see him in action like I have, you'd back down pretty fast.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Gosh, I really feel very unloved! All the aspersions that have been cast at me in the course of political discussion on here and no one has EVER rushed to my defense!