Non-debating religious thread...let's learn!! :)

[2kitties]

Originally posted by Tonya
I'm a Christian. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I don't believe that banging on people's doors or going to church is necessary in order to love God.

Amen. My dad always says that going to Church doesn't make you any more a Christian than standing in a barn makes you a tractor.

[2kitties]

Well Pops, I didn't quote your whole post, but I'll say it is great. I learned a great deal from it! I'll try to quickly answer some of your questions as I understand them.

First, I'll say that I am Christian, Lutheran to be exact. However, my personal religion/relationship with God varies a little. I feel that God gave us free will and free thought and so to assume that I would align myself specifically and wholy with one sect, insults the gift of free thought. God wants us to question and thing for ourselves. If we all thougth the same thing, then there would only be one religion totally, much less a zillion different schools of thought within one religion (lutheran, catholic, baptist, methdist, etc.)

okay, anyway.

Do you really believe children are born sinful, and that they need Jesus to *save* them, otherwise they are destined to Hell? In other words.........do you believe anyone who is *not* a Christian is going to Hell?

some do think that, it's true. I personally believe it is arrogant for any human to presume they can say who is going to Heaven or Hell. Do the best you can in this life. God will do the judging.
I believe that you can read any holy book and find words that will say almost anything you want them to say. I take them as guides, but not literal. For instance, I believe that science and God can go hand in hand. I believe that in the beginning, one of two things could have occurred. 1. A day was not equal to 24 hours. Or 2. The bible is metaphorical. Science is showing us that in our time, certianly things did not happen in 7 24 hour intervals. But that doesn't bug me. I think that if God wanted to make a day equal a million years, or if he wanted to make a Big Bang... well, he's God so I suppose he could do whatever he wants! I personally don't think it is wise to assume that because the Bible tells us it is okay, that we can sell our youngest daughter into slavery. Yes, it says that!

Originally posted by popcornbird
What do you believe about Jesus? How much do your beliefs differ from our's?

While I disagree with many Christian things, i feel that it's the basics that are improtant to us. Virgin Birth, Crucifiction, Resurrection. Those are the biggies for me. I've never understood Christians who spend so much time arguing with one another over the minutia of the Bible. I mean, do we really honestly care if Mary Magdalene was a whore or royal decendant? Does it honestly matter in the grand scheme of things? Not to me. If Jesus wanted a wife- well, that's just fine by me.

Originally posted by popcornbird
Do you worship Jesus, or do you worship God? How do you differenciate God from Jesus?

What does Trinity mean? I have never quite understood it, and would like an explanation.

What does it mean to baptize a child? What do you do in this process, and what does it symbolize?

Refer back to my previous post about the egg. The Holy Trinity- father son and holy ghost. I love someone's previous analogy of mother, wife and daughter. We believe Jesus was God made flesh. Imagine God cut off his little toe and made it into a baby. i know- silly, but it makes the point. Jesus is God made flesh. Is he a son.... in the human sense... I don't know. Maybe that is the way the deciples wrote it in the bible because that is a way humans can comprehend the relationship..... I don't know. But it works for me so I'll take it!

Babies are baptized in my church. I was baptized as an infant. My father joined our church after marrying my mother and was baptized as an adult. People have explained our idea of original sin pretty well here, I think. But I do think it's an abstract thought. I mean, we're born human, which is sinful by nature. But God only makes perfect things..... so doesn't that sort of collide?

Heck if I know.

This is fun ya'll!!!!

[Maresche]

Originally posted by 2kitties
I feel that God gave us free will and free thought and so to assume that I would align myself specifically and wholy with one sect, insults the gift of free thought. God wants us to question and thing for ourselves.

Oh my goodness! I thought I was the only one who thought this way!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by sirrahbed

What do you call a man witch in your religion?

a Mitch.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by RICHARD
a Mitch.

RICHARD!!!!!!!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
RICHARD!!!!!!!

What?

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by RICHARD
What?

[carole]

BOY are we getting religious in here, just jokin, seriously I wondered if there were any PT members who are in the Bahai Faith, I used to share a house with a girl who was, and it was an interesting faith, not that I know a lot about it, but I felt it was particularly good for women, correct me if I am wrong, anyway just curious?

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Twisterdog






That is an EXCELLENT question. I have often wondered about that myself. Frankly, the whole thing with Jesus brings up a zillion questions for me. I suppose it does for anyone ... except those rare and wonderful people, like my dear Grandma, who simply believe the Bible, word for word, at face value, without a thought of questioning anything. That is TRUE faith ... and, alas, I don't have it, I suppose. My mom says that Jews who lived before Jesus, and believed in God, will go to Heaven and be saved ... because they were following God's word and worshipping him. They couldn't very well worship someone who didn't exist on Earth yet. Which opens another can of worms for me.....

God was just God, and his followers were Jews. All was well for thousands of years. All of a sudden, God sends his son down to Earth as a baby named Jesus, and all the Jews are supposed to change their belief over night ... beliefs they have held for thousands of years. They are supposed to say, "Ooops, we were wrong. We aren't Jews anymore ... now we're Christians. We will follow the teachings of this young radical, proclaiming to be the son of God, and we will abandon the only religion we have ever known ... a religion which was just fine with God only yesterday, mind you. And if we don't, suddenly we'll go to Hell." Uuummmmm, ok. Sorry, but that doesn't sound very fair to me. I've always wondered about that.

This is a question that had ALWAYS hit my mind ever since I was a child, growing up. In my case, I would wonder.......what about the people before Mohammad?? This was of course, when I was younger, and didn't exactly know what my religion said about this. As I got older, I realized that we believe there is only one religion before God, only one religion that God sent to mankind, and it was mankind who changed it, and created differences amongst themselves. We believe Adam was a Prophet, too, so we believe, right from the beginning, God sent His Message to mankind.........the same message. We also believe the *Jews*, or the followers of Moses were believers. The Quran is full of stories about them, and about the followers of Jesus too. We believe Moses, Jesus, and all other Prophets were Muslims too. The term *Muslim* actually means *One who submits to God*. So from our belief, the believers before Mohammad were no different than us.......that they will have the same accountability before God.......that they worshipped the same God as us, and they didn't have to worry about worshipping someone who wasn't born yet, because God was always there, and Jesus wasn't. We believe Islam to be the completion of God's Word for all of mankind, but no different than what God originally revealed before. We don't worship Mohammad, or Jesus, or Moses, or any of the Prophets..........ONLY God (as in ONE God........I still don't understand Trinity ), so I don't see any confusion from an Islamic point of view on this issue. The people following Prophets before Mohammad were believers of the same message, in our faith.

Now, if you are wondering why I'm confused/questioning the aspect of Trinity when I *do* firmly believe God revealed the Bible to Jesus, its because, as I mentioned earlier, we believe mankind altered those Holy Books over the centuries, and from our beliefs, the Trinity issue is one of the aspects that was altered. In other words, from our faith, we don't believe God really said He is 3 in 1. We believe that was added later on, because the Bible was compiled years after Jesus had left this world......not right away. That is why so many things in Judhism and Christianity are the same as Islam. Just like Jews can't eat pork as we can't, and the Bible contains the same stories of Prophets as the Quran does.......we do believe a lot of the Bible even today, is the Word of God, but we don't take it because we can't believe in what we believe to be the man-written parts. I must say though, I love reading the Bible and comparing it to the Quran, because you can really see the similarities/differences between the two, and it gives a clearer picture of both religions.

PCB, here's what I was taught about the trinity as a child: There is one God. He created Jesus, to go out to people on earth. He created the Holy Spirit, to go out to people in their thoughts and minds. Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created by God, so they are parts of God himself ... made from his holiness. Make sense? Of course not!!

You're right. Of course not. Maybe I'm confused because everything I've been taught in my religion has always been so clear and did make complete sense to me, so I just can't understand this. I have never questioned what God said in the Quran.......I do have true faith in that, but I have never read anything that confused me so bad in the Quran either. It has all, always made sense to me.

PCB, I am more and more impressed by your religion as I read your posts, PCB. It seems to me that Islam is much more tolerant and open-minded toward Judaism and Christianity then Judaism and Christianity are towards Islam.




That is a very interesting, and appealing, idea. I'll have to give that one some thought ......

This is because in the Quran, God has given us a clear picture of the people before Mohammad, the believers........who were the Jews and Christians of the time. We don't believe Islam to be a different religion to what God revealed to Prophets before. The differences between us today, are because of what we believe to be man-written changes in previous books. I don't think most Jews and Christians of today really *know* about Muslims and what they truely believe in.........Lots of misunderstanding........unfortunately.

I love this thread. I'm learning so much! Thanks for all the answers everyone!

I thought I would share some more of what the Quran says on Jesus. *Gosh the internet makes it SO easy to search for the verses you're looking for! *

42. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

43. "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

44. This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him *Jesus*) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Gpd." Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims (submitters to the Will of God).

53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness."

54. And (the disbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.

55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

56. "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

57. "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."

58. "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

59. The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him (Adam) from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

60. The Truth (comes) from God alone; so be not of those who doubt.
Quran; 3, 42-60

[lat192004]

Hello forum members;

What an interesting discussion here! To start with I'm not religious. Not even a little bit. Jesus to me was a teacher, and an important religious leader. His influence is still felt today in his teachings and followers. God to me is an abstract idea, I have no idea what God really is. The more we study our universe, the faster old theories go to the wayside, but we still don't have a handle on what God is.Maybe it's beyond our comprehension, it is for me. You can read and study the Bible and take it's word for fact, as many people do.The structure it provides has saved many a life. Some folks really need the Bible and Jesus Christ. It provides a sense of security for them to lead a normal life. ....So, where do I get the courage and strengh to keep going on in this crazy world? It comes from within. It is not Jesus, God, or anyone.The power comes from within me, I can't explain it. Religion, Jesus,God, and whatever you pray to is the way many turn on that inner power that resides in our souls. That power is there for everyone, except some folks go about getting it in different ways,using God, Jesus, meditation, and even chemical agents. I don't go to church, don't pray, don't worry about going to heaven or hell or worry that God is going to punish us all if we sin by sending us all to a fiery death forever... For me life is simple:treat people nice, don't hurt others, respect others and treat people as you would like to be treated yourself. I don't complicate my life with do's and don'ts and complicated rules found in the Bible which some follow and others don't. We will all die someday, it's a fact of life! While you are here alive, live everyday as if it's your last. Be nice to people AND animals, of course! It's good Karma!

I really cannot think of anything else here, but it does prove that pet owners and animal lovers are deep thinkers. Just reading the posts prove it. All different ideas, no right or wrong, whatever works for the individual is what counts. And I still don't know what God is, except there seems to be an order to things, some form of control, some mysterious force and drive to it all. Maybe some day I will have the answer. The famous scientist Einstein was working on something he called "the theory of everything". He died before he could finish it. This theory may have given us a clue to what God and the universe is. In case anyone wonders what my religion is, it is close to Universal Unitarian.

I really enjoy this forum, nice people here. Pet lovers, naturally!

[IttyBittyKitty]

Originally posted by RICHARD
a Mitch.

LOL ... and what is your religion Richard?

[IttyBittyKitty]

Originally posted by carole
BOY are we getting religious in here, just jokin, seriously I wondered if there were any PT members who are in the Bahai Faith, I used to share a house with a girl who was, and it was an interesting faith, not that I know a lot about it, but I felt it was particularly good for women, correct me if I am wrong, anyway just curious?

I knew a girl at school who was of that faith, and she was THE nicest, sweetest and kindest person you'd ever meet in a day's walk.

[carole]

Funny you should say that Tam, my flatmate Karen, was like that too the most sweet, kind and bubbly person, I can remember one thing though, she had a really nice Tongan boyfriend, who she wanted to marry , her parents forbade it, and because of her faith she would not marry him, there was a happy ending though, her parents finally gave permission and she went to live in Tonga with him, and I remember she came back to NZ to have a baby.

[lat192004]

Originally posted by Tubby & Peanut's Mom
I guess this means you're really comfortable with us PT'ers, eh Kimmy? Thanks for feeling that way.

And thanks to everybody for sharing. People are so often afraid to discuss religion and it's refreshing to have a civil discussion about it.....so far anyway.

I find this refreshing that people are so open here. I'm still reading. I disconnected my dial-up, clicked off-line, and away I go. It is amazing that this discussion has remained civil, usually a religious topic goes sour pretty fast, but this is different. Great topic

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by IttyBittyKitty
LOL ... and what is your religion Richard?

The Church of the Easily Amused....It's a cult.