Tony Blaire - Look at the Internet

[catland]

Originally posted by Soledad
My idea of patriotism is a little different. It goes like this:

A true patriot listens to the world. Because no country exists in a vacuum.

A true patriot is offended by unfair, unfounded accusations that hold no water.

A true patriot listens to legitimate criticism in an attempt to hold their politicians accountable to true American ideals.

A true patriot is big enough to know when their country has gone down the wrong path, is not afraid to admit it, and actually does something to change it.

Here's what I DON'T believe what a patriot is:

A patriot does not say "my country right or wrong" and let their country go down the toilet in the process.

A patriot does not put a leader before the country.

A patriot does not seek to silence others for a differing opinion.

A patriot does not close their eyes and ears to the truth.

A patriot does not refuse to stand back and look at things from a new perspective.

A patriot does not stand by while its freedoms and values are being taken away.

at least this proves that Saddam is NOT a patriot.

[micki76]

Originally posted by micki76
Well Soledad, I've done my best to create a discussion of your views and opinions and I can see that's not gonna happen. I was very curious and interested in any information or views that you had, instead I get sent out into the Internet. (I'm generally not to trusting of websites, as they've been notorious for bogus information not saying that’s the case here.)
I reiterate. All I've seen of your insight is that you're against this war and you think we're taking over the Middle East. I just wanted to know how you came to these conclusions. That's all. I just thought you'd welcome the chance make your argument in a way that would enable people to potentially understand and grasp your beliefs about the situation.
I know we're all going off half cocked (myself included) about why this war is right or just, or why it isn't. So many feel the rights of Iraqi's are being violated and just as many others feel like we're doing an injustice if we look the other way and let Saddam continue in power. I HATE war. I FEAR war. I FEAR any person/group that will not even consider attempting to see another viewpoint. That kind of tunnel vision is scary, and I've had my own fair share of it lately.
No, I don't know what the Iraqi people want. I'm not so sure they do either. You don't either. I *think* if it were me living the life of an Iraqi citizen, I would want my freedom. But then again I may not know how to live any other way.

I truly believe that conquering the Middle East is not the goal of our leaders. I also believe if we ever did, it would be the end of our country. We would be blown off the planet. I don't think our leaders are so stupid that they don't realize that.

Did you read any of this?
No I don't want you do "do all the work for me". I wanted your OPINIONS, IDEAS, INPUT not the "stuff" that's helped you form those opinions. Most people who argue their point so feverishly can (and want to ) do so without sending people off into the (sometimes) never, never land of the internet. I cannot (and do not want to) support an argument "for war" so I don't try. I simply try to support the forces and say a prayer that a madman will be stopped. I don't have all the answers and I don't know how to stop a madman. But I do know I want him stopped.

[Soledad]

I did read it. But what I was trying to tell you was that I had already given you my points and my input and was trying to show you some sources that lead me to those points of view. You were not willing to read them because they were on the internet (oh the irony).

I think everyone here on the Doghouse has seen my input and point of view. Why should I rehash it all? I'm wondering why you're backtracking when you originally asked for sources as to why I think the way I do. And I'm also wondering why you've returned after your declaration to leave the Doghouse for good because the only reason people are here for is a fight?

[micki76]

And I'm also wondering why you've returned after your declaration to leave the Doghouse for good because the only reason people are here for is a fight?

Please don't be so angry. You're only reinforcing my statement. I saw that you had posted in this forum and got excited and thought you might like to actually have a conversation instead of an argument. My mistake. I don't think I said I'd NEVER return. This is the exact reason why I don't like the doghouse too much, but I am interested in different views and opinions. I'm quite curious about this issue and question many things about it.

You were not willing to read them because they were on the internet (oh the irony).

I read the one website that you keep touting. Don't say I didn't read it; I gave you direct quotes from it! Just because I don't chose to "read between the lines" and I don't glean the same thing you do from it doesn't mean I didn't read it!

I'm wondering why you're backtracking when you originally asked for sources as to why I think the way I do.

Where am I backtracking? I read your sources and became interested. You became angry for some reason and have continually been rude to me when I am only asking some basic questions. Oh the gall that I must have! You act like I am interrogating you. Don't be so defensive. I am very interested in learning from others. Their views, their reasoning, etc. I obviously asked you for something that you either don't have or are not willing to share for some reason.

If you don't want me to ask, then why are you even here? You posed some interesting theories and I've come to believe some of the anti war sentiments I've read here, so I was INTERESTED. EXCUSE ME!!!

[Soledad]

I'm not as angry as you think I am. If you want to discuss this further, perhaps we should PM each other? I am more than happy to have an exchange and share my views in an environment conducive to civil debate. I don't believe the Doghouse is such an environment, but I am happy to discuss with you one on one my beliefs and further resources.

[micki76]

I have PM'd you Soledad.

[yorkster]

Originally posted by Soledad

And I don't think it's necessary to call other countries "insignificant" because you don't like ONE person's opinion.

I agree with this- calling another person's country "insignificant" is NOT nice whether you agree with their beliefs or not. I can't believe that there are so many of you out there that seemed to think that it was okay.........................
There have been other 'not so nice' remarks also, from other P. Talkers.

I have not been involved with PT too much lately, but saw all this stuff and could not believe the way it's all going here with this subject. My husband and I disagree about the war, and my sister and I do also. W don't get rude with each other about it though.

I don't like America-bashing any more than the rest of you, but there are some peole here from these other countries that simply are against the war, and have said so. That does not make them 'America-bashers'

On one the other threads on this subject, I believe *cheetahgirl* expressed some fear and concern because of living so close to Iraq and the war. Now, she may not be a huge USA fan either, but I did not see anything that she wrote that was exactily bashing us.
Besides, how can any of us here in the states really know how it feels to live so close to the war that is going-on and all the fall-out that is going to happen (whatever that may be)?

Here is my opinion:
I support our troops 100%. I pray for them daily.
I don't however, support the war, and I don't believe that it makes me a BAD AMERICAN.
Freedom of Speech applies to everyone, even people like me!

And by-the-way, I am an American. Born here, raised here.
I have a cousin that is in Iraq, and also the husband (and father too) of a good friend of mine. So you see, I DO care.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I proudly registered to vote on my 18th birthday and have not missed voting in a local, state or national election. I vote without regard to party, race or gender. I vote for the person I believe to be best qualified. I have voted for as many Republicans as Democrats. I consider voting together just about the sexiest and most romantic thing my husband and I do. I have willingly and proudly served on jury duty.

I am a war protester.

My mother’s family has been in this country since before the Revolutionary War (a HUGE protest against the government.) My father’s family immigrated fairly recently – in search of economic opportunity and religious freedom.

I am a war protester.

I read a daily newspaper and 2-3 news magazines a week. I am a student of world and U.S. history (I teach a course that uses US labor history to explain US labor law.) I pay my taxes – not happily but willingly -- as the price of communal living.

I am a war protester.

I consider it my obligation as a citizen to know history, geography, current events and to decide my position as a result. I see no contradiction between being a patriot and being opposed to this war and the actions of this administration. I have family members and friends with different beliefs – however I still drink their wine and eat their food – and they mine. And I hope and believe that any rational member of the armed forces enlisted in order to protect a country based on freedom – including the freedom to protest.

[mugsy]

You're right Sara, the men and women in the military DO fight for our right to protest, but, when asked, a lot, if not most, would say that they don't appreciate war protest when they're over there, putting their butts on the line, and some of their own countrymen (and women) are flaunting how much they hate the war. Just an opinion. And, just for the record, while I don't agree with war protesters I will defend to the death their right to do it.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Mugsy,

Some of the decisions made by the leaders of Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Andersen were appalling, bad, wrong. That doesn't mean that the hardworking men and women of Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Andersen were appalling, bad, or wrong. They were doing the job they were asked to do, to the best of their abilities, and proud of the work they did.

My disagreement is with the leadership team.

[yorkster]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Mugsy,

Some of the decisions made by the leaders of Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Andersen were appalling, bad, wrong. That doesn't mean that the hardworking men and women of Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Andersen were appalling, bad, or wrong. They were doing the job they were asked to do, to the best of their abilities, and proud of the work they did.

My disagreement is with the leadership team.

You're right-on about that Edwina's Secrectary!
I could not have worded it better myself.