Prong collars or chokers?

[Bigyummydog]

well, you could say, when ALL else fails, you and your dog would rather NOT be under a truck, if a cat runs by...

[cyber-sibes]

I haven't used a prong collar because they look so awful, but after reading this, I think I might try one on Speedo(Cloud-Prince)-- he pulls horribly, and i don't think a choke collar (like I used to train Star) is going to deter him much. I used a Gentle Leader head collar with my Rosie, which worked like a charm, but Speedo has so far successfully thwarted my every attempt to put one on him.

[Bigyummydog]

MAXIMUS just gets soooo excited when he sees that big ugly and quite scary looking collar....it means we're going for a walk....it is scary at first, but you'll see, the way SPEEDO reacts....it's worth a try......

[Suki Wingy]

Haha.. Same with NiÑo, he absolutley goes crazy when he sees the prong! I think the people who belive there is always another way have not experianced the kind of hardheaded dogs like NiÑo who pull like a monster and absolutley refuse to listen to me some times. When I heard people say that a dog could be trained with a choke or a martingle I thought they were insane and radical and had never really tryed to train a dog before. I bet my next dog will be a breeze to train after NiÑo, even if it is a dal.

[aly]

Originally posted by slleipnir
Oh yeah, do you guys think I could show up next week with a prong collar for Zeke? I KNOW she'll confront me..and I'm not very good with people doing that to me But, I REALLY don't like how I can't do what I want for my dog...I was thinking if she told me to leave or something I'd tell her if she gives me my money back, I'd be happy to. I don't really want to be rude though..

I'm probably a lot like you. I'm sort of shy and I HATE confrontation. I'm overly nice to people and get walked on all the time. BUT I have learned to speak up if it involves something I truly believe in. Don't let her make you do something that you feel uncomfortable with. He is your dog. You can say it in as nice a way as possible, but if she confronts you, tell her that you do not feel comfortable with a tight chain around your dog's neck. Don't let her scare or intimidate you. Remember, even though we're not there in person, we'll still be cheering you on.

I can't even believe she said it needs to be small. What if it it got pulled tight and stuck? How would you get it off in an emergency? That is just scary that she is allowed to teach classes.

[aly]

Originally posted by slleipnir

I do know that I want my dogs trained to listen to me NO MATTER WHAT. I expect them to come when I call, even if there is a dog. (Duno how to do that!!!)

We always tell people in class that they won't get instant results. It involves a lot of practice before you can go for a normal walk without having to worry about training. We tell them that if they want to take a walk without training, then to use a tool like the Halti, Sporn No-Pull, Gentle Leader, etc.

We have them start training exercises in their home. When a dog becomes good at an exercise, then they start practicing in the front or backyard. They eventually get to the point where they can practice in public (Petsmart, dog park, etc). If the dog just can't concentrate, we go back a step because they weren't ready. When you get to the point where your dog is proficient at doing exercises in public, then they get very used to listening to you even with distractions (other dogs) around. We have several 'relationship' exercises that we mix with the obedience exercises that really train the dog to focus on the owner. It does involve patience, consistency, and some conditioning. It can get fast results often, but it does depend on the dog. I do truly believe that positve methods work with any dog, some just require a bit more patience, hehe

Originally posted by Suki Wingy
I think the people who belive there is always another way have not experianced the kind of hardheaded dogs like NiÑo who pull like a monster and absolutley refuse to listen to me some times. When I heard people say that a dog could be trained with a choke or a martingle I thought they were insane and radical and had never really tryed to train a dog before. I bet my next dog will be a breeze to train after NiÑo, even if it is a dal.

Thats not true I don't always state my experience in these threads, but I usually try to so that people won't think I'm just spewing words out with no experience behind them. I've been a volunteer at the humane society here for 5 years. I immediately started an intensive training program where I interned with behaviorists and learned a lot about dog training and behavior. I also volunteer with trainers and behaviorists so I'm constantly involved in good conversations with them. I teach obedience classes to the public. Through the classes and the shelter dogs, I've encountered some of the hardest dogs I've ever seen. I've been banged up and bruised from walking massively large adolescent dogs who pull like the dickens. I have literally been dragged through a field. Candy also stated her experience before giving her opinions.

I'll be the first to admit that the methods I teach take a little longer than using a prong. But if you think about it, using a choke/prong isn't really *training*. It is a physical correction, but does it really teach the dog what the desired behavior is? I guess that is an arguable point, because with a prong, you will get a dog walking by your side. However, I just can't fathom how "popping" the dog and telling them "no" constantly helps your relationship and causes no harm to their mental well-being. No, not every dog on a prong will become mentally damaged. But there are vast amounts of dogs who are shy or come from abusive pasts and that would damage their mental well-being.

[LKPike]

Originally posted by slleipnir
I KNOW she'll confront me...I was thinking if she told me to leave or something I'd tell her if she gives me my money back, I'd be happy to. I don't really want to be rude though..

I understand you don't want to be rude, as I've been pushed into that before myself. If she starts, you can't back down. Its YOUR dog, YOU pay HER - not the other way around. I'd say go right ahead and use the prong collar on Zeke, since youve had good results with it on your other dog, right?

If that "trainer" does ask you to leave, DO ask for your money back and... leave.


btw - obviously I voted Prong

[lv4dogs]

Originally posted by Feismom
I use a gentle chocker at the moment. It's also called a show chocker. My dog doesn't yank on the leash anymore. He just walks by my side with a very loose give to the collar. He starts his final training this summer and the Service Dog School uses a Gentle Leader collar which is suppose to be really good on all dogs. So, we'll probably be switching to that this summer. Here is a website that gives you a little more info on the gentle leader collar http://www.gentleleader.com/pages.cfm?ID=29

I like the looks of the gentle leader and I'll let you know how Shadow likes it if we switch this summer. Shadow's bio can be found @ http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?j=t&i=142635



This is a picture of Shadow taken last month. He's wearing his gentle choker.

I see the vest & was wondering what type of work or therapy do you do with Shadow?

[slleipnir]

Aly, I don't think what I do is that negative like you say prong training is. I certainly don't have the experience you do, so I don't know if I should say anything lol.

I do know that if the dog does something you don't want, you give them a pop (doesn't have to be hard..just enough for the situation you're in) Lets say, the dog isn't heeling, he's walking ahead...Most times I say "Noo" and my dogs will come right back into heeling without a pop, but if they don't, a little pop will do it. Then tell them heel again (to re enforce) and tell them how good they are.

With Josie's aggression, if she walks nicely by a dog, she gets a huge reward for it. It's soemthing she is still learning and it's VERY good if she doesn't growl..so, she needs a reward to make it worth her not to bark. Maybe a treat, or playing ball. So, if you think about it, the dogs are being told what they can't do by a pop, and being rewarded when they DO it right. So, the way I see it, the dog will learn rather quickly what he needs to do to get that great reward.

[ramanth]

I voted for the choker, but I wouldn't say I prefered it.

Kia was in an obedience class taught by a woman who is revered for her skills in training police canines. She trained dogs with the choke/prong collars. Our class was only large breeds... shephards, pit bulls, huskies, etc.

If I were to do it again, I'd try the clicker method first, but I see no problem with using those collars for training if all others had been exhausted.

I no longer use the choke collar on Kia because for the most part she obeys and it served it's purpose.

[lizbud]

Of the two collars, I would (and do) use the prong collar. I used
it for Buddy & it was a godsend.We were able to go on walks
with me safely in control of him. He was a terrible puller.Bud was
trained using the old fashioned methods of the day with the
choke collar & pops of the leash. I was awful at giving corrections
cause I couldn't bear to hurt him. Switching to the prong collar
when very smoothly & was only used for long walks.

I am a failure at dog walking I guess, cause Smokey & Maggie
both use the prong collar with modifications. I had to remove a
few links & put the rubber tips on for them. I think the choke
collar is o.k. if it works for you & your dog AND the person knows
the correct way to loop the chain. It should relax the choke when
the dog is not pulling it.

[bckrazy]

I dont use either. . they aren't HORRIBLE when they're used correctly, but it seems like a band-aid to me. I would not go to a trainer that forces you to use prong or choke chains . . she sounds really annoying and uneducated. Basically, she probably want everyone to put chokers on their dogs to make her job easier! In the long-run, training with a flat or rolled leather collar means youre voice and body language controls the dog, not a pinching or throat-restricting collar. Our trainers are the opposite, they don't allow prong collar, chokers, haltis or harnesses in class. . and all of the dogs that are past the first three or four classes never act up, pull, run away, or ignore their owners, they're all really good pups without anything but rolled/flat leather collars.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by aly
I'll be the first to admit that the methods I teach take a little longer than using a prong. But if you think about it, using a choke/prong isn't really *training*. It is a physical correction, but does it really teach the dog what the desired behavior is? I guess that is an arguable point, because with a prong, you will get a dog walking by your side. However, I just can't fathom how "popping" the dog and telling them "no" constantly helps your relationship and causes no harm to their mental well-being.

There is so much I want to respond to in this thread but lack of time will limit me. I would like to say that what Aly said hits the nail on the head! Using chokes and prongs is nothing more than a physical correction. Your dog may learn what not to do in order to avoid a pop again but it is not learning the desired behavior for doing it right from the start. Let me use an analagy. I keep drawing a circle but the teacher wants me to draw a square. When I draw a circle I get a pop (physical correction that is meant to hurt or jar my attention). Do I know yet that the teacher wants me to draw a square? No... so I draw another circle and the same thing keeps happening. Before long, I'm either going to do one of two things... not draw anything or try a different shape. Only a fool would keep doing something that causes pain.

Now lets try the same analagy a little different. The trainer wants me to draw a square and shows me that I'm suppose to draw a square. I draw a circle.... no reward and no physical correction. She shows me again how to draw a circle. This time I draw a square. She makes a instant noise and immediately something good happens to me (usually a treat but some other kind of reward could be used). WoW! I THINK that was great... let's try it again. OK.. I draw another circle... nothing happens BUT when I do the square that is what gets me the reward and makes the teacher happy... I'll think I'll continue to draw squares when she shows me that's what she wants.

Clicker training is the best way to shape a dogs behavior because the sound the clicker makes is constant and the dog learns to listen for it. No matter if you use the same "verbal" praise everytime the dog does something, it will be different because of your pitch in your voice. Having that constant tone is what makes clicker training so wonderful!

You can learn a lot by going to clickertraining.com. That website gives you the basics of training and how to shape a desired behavior. I feel some trainers do not like clicker training because it forces the dog to think and it forces the trainer to be creative.

The bottom line is that the dog determines it's rewards for doing desired behaviors instead of trying to figure out how to stop the next painful correction. I've done both and can testify that once you do clicker training and see the difference it makes in the dogs attitude, you will never use another training method. Do they all get results.... YES.... but at a price I am not willing to put on my dogs ever again. Each person has to figure out what works for them though. Clicker training and positive training methods in general just work for me!

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by bckrazy
Our trainers are the opposite, they don't allow prong collar, chokers, haltis or harnesses in class. . and all of the dogs that are past the first three or four classes never act up, pull, run away, or ignore their owners, they're all really good pups without anything but rolled/flat leather collars.

The first thing I tell people when they enroll in an obedience class is that only flat buckle collars are allowed. On the first class we teach puppy management. That is where the dog is on a short lead and the handler steps on it to keep the dog in a down position. There are dogs that fight this (of course my Dusty did) but it's more of an embarrasement thing than a painful thing because they only have flat buckle collars on. The dog is not in control and it wants to be so it puts up a fuss. It's hard for some handlers because they are not alpha over their dogs. However, after the first night we usually don't have any problems. This enables me to teach all the students instead of having a dog out of control distracting from the class. This is about as harsh as my classes get. From there is it all positive.

The misconception I think some of you may be thinking about positive training is that you never give your dog corrections. That is the furthest thing from the truth. You do give your dog corrections but in non painful and positive ways. I use the UTT OHHH verbal and break out of the teaching position. Then we go back to step one and start again. Pretty soon the dog learns that wasn't the right thing so Let's try again! Before long the dogs catches on (the light bulb goes off) and the dog has a good understanding of what is expected. The next thing is to proof the behavior to ensure the dog will do it under all circumstances. That's a whole different post. Basically, the best site to check out information on clicker training is clickertraining.com with Karen Pryor, the originator of clicker training.

[K9soul]

I don't think there is one sure fire method that always works without fail for every dog in every situation. I disagree that the prong (as long as it is used correctly), is painful. It mainly prevents pulling from happening in the first place, at least in my experience, the same as a halti does. I do not really agree with popping it the way you would a slip collar in order to give a correction. I don't use it for training, I use it as a band-aid/insurance only when I'm walking Tommy on a very busy street with traffic because he is prone to bolting if something startles him. He is stronger than me, and I'd rather have him wear a prong than yank out of my grasp and bolt into oncoming traffic when something startling happens. As I've mentioned before, I used to use a gentle leader (for 2 years), but he was miserable every time, no matter how many treats I gave him, how often he was exposed to it. He'd have his tail tucked the entire walk because he hated that thing on his face. I decided to try the prong for his sake, not mine, as I would have preferred to stay with the leader but I couldn't stand his misery with it.

As I mentioned, I don't train with it, training sessions are pretty much 100% positive reinforcement. I don't even say the word "no" while training. I completely ignore undesirable behavior, or give a passive consequence such as halting the walk until they stop and sit down, then praising and continuing.

Negative reinforcement is not bad reinforcement in the sense that you might be viewing it (talking to Audrey here ), it simply means giving a "negative" consequence that the dog will want to avoid, i.e. saying no, giving a correction, etc. In that light, I suppose stopping the walk until they stop pulling and sit is sort of a negative reinforcement. It's something the dog will want to avoid, but it seems to me most trainers don't really classify that as a negative reinforcer.

Positive reinforcement of course is a good consequence for good behavior, praise, treat, a toy, etc. Many trainers advocate using a mix of both positive and negative reinforcement when training. I suppose I do a combination in some instances, although not by saying "no" "bad" and making him/her do what I want. I prefer to behave in a way that makes the dog choose to do the behavior I want on their own. For example, if I throw Tommy's ball and he gets it and then gives it back to me when I say "give it to me" he may get a treat (random) or get the ball thrown again (which is a reward for him). If he goes and gets it, and does not give it to me when I ask him, I ignore him for a few moments and that usually does the trick, he'll often come give it to me when he sees I won't chase him. If he still doesn't, the session is over and he has to go back inside, no treat and no more ball throwing at that time. That's his consequence.

I found it's easiest to train leash manners starting out without a leash on, teaching off-leash heeling using treats as a lure and treating/praising heavily as they walked at my side, while saying heel. After some practice with this they learn to associate 'heel' with walking at your side and they do it enthusiastically for reward, not to avoid a pop. When they get proficient at that, you add in a leash and keep doing the same thing. I'd love to start out this way with a puppy and prevent pulling from ever happening in the first place, because once pulling habit is formed it's tougher to eliminate.

Tommy is fairly well trained on leash walking and I'm still working with him, however in his case he has his timidity issues, which I've also worked with extensively. Clicker training methods will not eliminate his startle response to sudden stimuli. I've worked with him on this extensively, and I still am. I have to work with each new thing individually, but I do not think I will ever completely eliminate his initial *jerk* response when something unexpected occurs. I don't use either choker or prong on Tasha, and I wouldn't use either on Tommy if he did not have that startle response issue. As it is, I only use it when I feel I am in a potentially dangerous situation, i.e. walking by a major highway or trafficway.