saw this on the news tonight..

[carole]

Well i tend to agree with you, they have to want to be rehabilitated firstly. and i think forcing it on them in those circumstances would only make them more resentful towards animals.
But maybe not in this particular horrific case, but there maybe some who can and could be rehabilitated, they do try this here for other crimes against humans, and in some cases it works.
Still LOCKING THEM AWAY and throwing AWAY THE KEY, could and would not be good enough for them in my personal opinion, in this particular case.

[IttyBittyKitty]

Originally posted by kitten645
The thing that makes this even more horrible and what people who believe "it's just an animal" should know that this sort of behavior inevitably leads to equal horrors toward people. See Jeffrey Daumer(sp?). Such disregard for a life that cannot defend itself should reap the harshest of punishments. I don't believe that anyone commiting this sort of act can be "rehabilitated". Where does one go after doing something so against every "human" compassion??

Jeffrey Dahmer is but one example...

Some of you may have heard of the "Homocidal Triad" ... in almost all retrospective assessments of serial murderers, they have found childhood/adolescent history of two of three behaviours, one of which is cruelty to animals.

I would bet a million dollars that at least one of these vile, disgusting individuals will one day be arrested for rape and/or murder. Those who commit such aberrant acts against any creature do so because they derive satisfaction from it, and they will not stop. The lesson that these creeps will learn from being in prison? Don't get caught. That's the only lesson that violent criminals ever learn.

The price that society pays for ignoring cruelty to animals is that one day, a human being will die at the hands of these men in the same fashion. THEN, and only then, will everyone bleat on about how "it all could have been prevented."

Rehabilitation, when it comes to cruel criminal acts, is a farce. I am thoroughly against giving killers, child molesters, and rapists a second chance. They certainly didn't give their victims a second chance. In the case of murder, the victim gets the death penalty and the perpetrator may walk away with just 10 years served behind bars.

We need to do away with these ridiculous ideas.

EDITED ... TO ..er... tone it down a bit as the Mayors are away and we promised to be good!!

[IttyBittyKitty]

Oh dear, I think I am getting too carried away. I'll bet this thread will get banished to the Dog House very soon!

[carole]

Not at all, you are passionate about this, there is nothing wrong with that, i just want to make myself a little clearer, i actually am not really for rehabilitation in those kind of cases either, i agree with you, as far as i am concerned there are very few who will actually change, and only a handful of cases that deserve this kind of 2nd chance.
I am no phsycologist, but i wonder what makes certain people actually get a cat or dog and then decide to mistreat it, why did they get it in the first place, to MISTREAT it, its something i just will never understand.
We had a case just yesterday of this 68 yr old farmers who starved his sheep and sheep dogs, he went to court, he was not a bit sorry, he did nothing wrong as far as he is concerned, he claimed he was producing lean meat, yeah right, the judge and jury did not believe him either, a young guy who once worked with him, stated at one time he was not like that, a stubborn old fool now, and liked to help other people, so what changed him i wonder.
He was fined seven thousand dollars, 400 hrs community work, and had to forfeit his dog(thank goodness) and was not allowed to own any more animals for five yrs, his reaction was simply oh well i am too old to be doing that anymore, he seemed very arrogant.

[IttyBittyKitty]

I didn't think that anyone on the Pet Talk boards would be advocates for the rehabilitation of seriously depraved offenders! You least of all, since you have been reading up on this case quite a bit.

You know, even eminent psychologists, psychiatrists and criminologists are often stumped by the questions you raise - why do people do such things? To me, it's a matter of choice. There are those out there who come from the same backgrounds as depraved criminals, and posess the same mental and intellectual characteristics, but never become criminals, never harm an animal or human being. So what is so different about those who do?

Nothing.

They just make a choice, pure and simple.

There is no such thing as being a slave of one's own circumstance. Just as the law-abiding citizens choose not to become criminals, those who take the other path should be made to pay the appropriate price for doing so.

[carole]

Ittybittykitty i suggest you re-read my threads, i DID NOT say i was for rehabilitation for these depraved criminals, so go back and read it all again plz. AS IF I would be, come on NO WAY girl.
If i worded my threads wrong forgive me, i obviously did not get through what i was trying to say here, you missed my points and mis-understood thats all.
I was merely stating it has worked in some cases, i wondered if an added punishment for cruelty to animals, (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE AT ALL-IT WAS TOO HORRIFIC TO EVEN SUGGEST SUCH A THING) but in cases not near as severe, if they could spend some time working SUPERVISED ALL THE TIME at an animal shelter and learn to love and appreciate animals, but i guess it was a silly idea really, and would not work, because these people just arent like you and me, lets face it.

[carole]

Originally posted by carole
Well i tend to agree with you, they have to want to be rehabilitated firstly. and i think forcing it on them in those circumstances would only make them more resentful towards animals.
But maybe not in this particular horrific case, but there maybe some who can and could be rehabilitated, they do try this here for other crimes against humans, and in some cases it works.
Still LOCKING THEM AWAY and throwing AWAY THE KEY, could and would not be good enough for them in my personal opinion, in this particular case.

Ittybittykitty, maybe my first thread confused you, when i was referring to rehabiltating monsters, i did not mean the ones who did this horrendous crime, i have re-read that thread and i did not explain myself properly, my apologies there, but if you read this thread and others you will c I AM NOT FOR IT IN MOST CASES. just wanted to explain this to you, so you dont have the wrong idea about me and where i am coming from ok.
I would HATE it if anyone on pet-talk thought that i agreed that these morons deserved a 2nd chance of any description, words cannot express how i really feel about them

[carole]

Originally posted by carole
Not at all, you are passionate about this, there is nothing wrong with that, i just want to make myself a little clearer, i actually am not really for rehabilitation in those kind of cases either, i agree with you, as far as i am concerned there are very few who will actually change, and only a handful of cases that deserve this kind of 2nd chance.
I am no phsycologist, but i wonder what makes certain people actually get a cat or dog and then decide to mistreat it, why did they get it in the first place, to MISTREAT it, its something i just will never understand.
We had a case just yesterday of this 68 yr old farmers who starved his sheep and sheep dogs, he went to court, he was not a bit sorry, he did nothing wrong as far as he is concerned, he claimed he was producing lean meat, yeah right, the judge and jury did not believe him either, a young guy who once worked with him, stated at one time he was not like that, a stubborn old fool now, and liked to help other people, so what changed him i wonder.
He was fined seven thousand dollars, 400 hrs community work, and had to forfeit his dog(thank goodness) and was not allowed to own any more animals for five yrs, his reaction was simply oh well i am too old to be doing that anymore, he seemed very arrogant.

If you read this one Ittybittykitty, you will c im saying i am not really for rehab in these kind of cases and they dont deserve a 2nd chance.. only a handful of cases might, if any.
I hope this clears things up for you and you realise I AM ON YOUR SIDE

[IttyBittyKitty]

Originally posted by carole
Ittybittykitty i suggest you re-read my threads, i DID NOT say i was for rehabilitation for these depraved criminals, so go back and read it all again plz. AS IF I would be, come on NO WAY girl.
If i worded my threads wrong forgive me, i obviously did not get through what i was trying to say here, you missed my points and mis-understood thats all.
I was merely stating it has worked in some cases, i wondered if an added punishment for cruelty to animals, (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE AT ALL-IT WAS TOO HORRIFIC TO EVEN SUGGEST SUCH A THING) but in cases not near as severe, if they could spend some time working SUPERVISED ALL THE TIME at an animal shelter and learn to love and appreciate animals, but i guess it was a silly idea really, and would not work, because these people just arent like you and me, lets face it.

We are both getting confused! What I was saying in my last thread was that I know that you would take the same view about rehabilitation of nasties as I would I should have worded it a lot clearer!!! Your idea wasn't a silly one, but I think, as you say, that these guys are way beyond help.

Let's kiss and make up, hey? Save all the anger for the BADDIES!

[FindMatt]

Hi there,

There have been some interesting points made in this thread since I last visited... a few of which I wanted to comment on.
First -- the motive behind this particular torture video: On the video you can clearly hear one of the young men ask 'So why are we doing this?' - Anothers response is 'I don't even know yet' -- HOWEVER -- in defense, it was brought up that the video was a statement on meat-eating. It was also noted that Jesse Power and Anthony Wennekers pleaded guilty and a guilty plea is a sign of remorse, according to the defense attornies of the young men.
It is my opinion, after being in the same courtroom as Jesse, Anthony and the recently-captured Matt, that none are remorseful for their actions.
On the subject of rehabilitation. It was brought up in this thread that there is something called a 'homicide triangle' which involves 3 factors, that when combined, can result in a higher instance of murderers and the like. The 3 factors are: bed-wetting, fire-starting and animal abuse.
As a point of interest, there were psychiatric evaluations done of Mr. Wennekers and Mr. Power - the results stated that there was no sign of mental illness.
It has been suggested that perpetrators of animal abuse crimes be made to spend time with animals as part of their punishment. This idea is something I strongly disagree with, for several reasons.
That's it for now.
Take care,

Katie Woodward
www.findmatt.org
Kensington's Campaign - take a look!

[carole]

I dont know why, but it seems i say things and it gets misconstrued.
I want to make myself very very clear on this, i DONOT consider rehab, for this particular sinister evil crime even a consideration, and i was merely wondering if maybe in some cases, much minor abuse, if it indeed would work at all, i was not stating i personally think this is what should be done, just putting a suggestion forward, anything that stops this horrendous animal abuse in our world today is all i am for.
So please dont think for one moment, i am for this, IM NOT ok, and ittybittykitty, its fine u know that, i was never angry at you in the first place ok.

[IttyBittyKitty]

I know where you stand, and so does Katie. She's just been away from this thread for some time. I know you weren't angry at me, you were frustrated and angry at the horrid people who did this vile act...

Your idea about working with animals is a great idea, and it would probably work in cases of neglect and cases of small children who abuse animals. I think it would also work for other crimes such as B+E, drink driving, etc. Nothing like working with animals to teach a little human decency!

[carole]

Thanks ittybittykitty, thats exactly what ive been trying to say, i guess im just not good at getting my point across, you are right, i just think in those kinda cases as u suggested it might be worth giving it a try anything that cuts down on animal abuse is what im for, united we stand for sure .

[IttyBittyKitty]

In fact, the younger we teach children and adolescents about respecting animals and respecting other humans, the better. You are guaranteed better results when you start with children - that's the problem, too many parents are just too lazy to teach good values to their children.

I'll just bet that all of the Pet Talker's children will grow up to be wonderful, well-adjusted people - model citizens really

[smokey the elder]

This business of can "baddies" be rehabbed is related to the nature vs nurture argument in sociology. All the genetic markers, chemistry, etc. notwithstanding, the power of good parenting is now being scientifically quantified! (Chemical and Engineering News, June 2 2003 issue.)

Young people should be taught to respect all living things, whether by parents, teachers, older siblings, other relatives, or clergy.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I haven't got on one in awhile.