Groups Opposed ToThe Greyhound Racing Industry

[lizbud]

Maybe I should have better explained my intention in posting this thread. Sorry.

I wanted to show the wide range of opposition to Greyhound
Racing in the US. GRA tries it's to paint all opposed as wild
"animal rights" extremists and that's just not the case at all.

Whenever you have people,money and animals involved in a
glambling venture, you can "bet" it's the dogs who lose every
time. Greyhound Racing is a dying industry. The quicker, the
better. This beautiful breed deserves so much more.


I think this local state group deserves another plug.

http://www.idahocage.org/default.htm

[greysandmoregreys]

Just a comment about the dogs that tested positive to cocaine at Lincoln.

Martin there was a thread over on GT about this.

I knew one of the trainers that was listed that one of there dogs tested positive. The man has heart problems, has had I think 2 heart attacks, is about 45 and would never and has never used cocaine in his life!!!! I know this man personally can stand up for him.

I find it a bit silly for people to believe that someone would give cocaine to there dogs. For one thing the cost of cocaine. For 2 anyone who works at a race track knows how the pee test works and wouldn't try to sneak it by.

Now I"m not saying that they didn't test postive but you have to look at how many people handled these greyhounds from the time they left the trainers hands until the trainers picked them up after the race.

1) the lead out that held them on the scale
2) the lead out that brought them back to the jinny pit
3) the lead out that brought them back out of the jinny pit and reweighed them again
4) the paddock judge who read there ear numbers
5) the lead out that walked them out on the track
6) the box people that may have handled them at the boxes
7) any other leadout track personal that may have petted the dogs

So to blame one person, the trainer when so many other people handled the dog is just crazy.

I didn't think this whole racing thing would be brought up again but it looks as if some people would like to learn more and we are always willing to inform

Heather & the hounds

[guster girl]

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys


I didn't think this whole racing thing would be brought up again but it looks as if some people would like to learn more and we are always willing to inform

Heather & the hounds

I definitely want to learn more, from both sides. As long as it's done nicely, without making the people who have differing opinions feel stupid, then, I'm all for it.

[lizbud]

Quote:

"I didn't think this whole racing thing would be brought up again but it looks as if some people would like to learn more and we are always willing to inform "

Heather & the hounds


And who might those people be ?

You are welcome to start a pro racing thread if you like, but that's
not the purpose of this one. Thanks.


btw, Just noticed today's birthdays. Happy Birthday jspence.

[lizbud]

Originally posted by guster girl
I definitely want to learn more, from both sides. As long as it's done nicely, without making the people who have differing opinions feel stupid, then, I'm all for it.

I posted after you did. This thread is not meant to be a debate
between pro & con. It's information about groups who oppose
racing for profit & explotation of the Greyhound breed.

[rockingship]

Greetings....I was a greyhound trainer for many years, and I've even raised a few litters.......and have been pretty deeply interested in racing greyhound bloodlines for quite some time now, and provide bloodline analysis and info to breeders free of charge.

I can assure you that the whelping and registration numbers that the NGA records are above reproach. Each month, the breedings and whelpings are listed by litter and registrant, in the Greyhound Review....this information has always been public, and can be documented by anyone who wishes to take issue with the various fabrications that we see put forth by certain individuals or groups----or to check on the NGAs accuracy.

Every racing greyhound whelped, even the stillborn births, are reported and tabulated in th.e yearly whelping statistics. All protocols concerning the reportage and registration of matings and whelpings are mandatory, if the breeder wishes to race their greyhound. No state as yet recognizes any non-NGA registered greyhound as a legal racer. The various states regulate racing.

It is critically important to the racing greyhound breed, and to breeders, that scrupulous records are maintained, not only of bloodlines and of sires and dams--- but of their progeny and their performances.

Since racing greyhounds are selectively bred toward racing performance, and are selected for breeding as a result of their own racing abilities and aptitudes, it is important that accurate records of whelpings and registrations are kept----so that bloodlines and their progenitors can be objectively evaluted.....in terms of their opportunities, failures and successes, versus the population as a whole. The various effects of linebreeding, nicking patterns and outcrossing, can also be viewed in some sort of relative and objective context. ......which is, moreover, the essence of responsible, selective breeding.

For example, I don't simply want to learn that WW Time Warp (an accomplished young sire) is ranked in the top 20 sires.....or that he has sired 463 offspring.....nor do I merely wish to learn only that he has sired 168 top-grade winners......but I do need to know that he has had a significant number of breedings to provide a reliable sampling, versus his competitors, and that if 168 of his offspring have won top grade races....then his "strike rate" is 36.3%....which places him in the highest echelon of greyhounds who have had a similar number of breeding opportunities. ......upon further investigation (of his pedigree), I can see that he is the modern day exponent of the Rosary Meadows branch of the powerful Kiche female family----which is our foremost domestic sire-producing female family....and also the direct family of Hall of Fame immortals, like Downing and Rural Rube.

FYI.....There are 46 different female families of racing greyhounds, and they are all of critical importance to the racing breed. Some of them can be traced as far back as the 1700s, where records of progeny and performance were also kept..

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by 7up
How would anyone know what percentage of greyhounds went where if the NGA won't even record this information and share it with the public? Do we just wait until jcsperson deems it so with unverifiable "estimates"?

Greyhounds are not registered until they are 1 1/2 years old. Your numbers don't even begin with the actual number whelped.
We have seen adult greyhounds who went into adoption that were never registered at all.

Florida has the largest concentration of greyhounds in the country. According to the adoption people there who work in the trenches, they are not able to take even half of the greyhounds needing to go into adoption each year. What do you suppose those "caring owners" do with the all their dogs?

Jay,

You know better than that. The "adoption people who work in the trenches" have a keyhole view of the overall adoption picture. Are there dogs slipping through the cracks in Florida? You're damn right there are. The Panhandle tracks are the biggest obstacle to full adoption. Do those tracks reflect what is going on at the other Florida tracks or the entire industry? Are half the dogs in Florida put down? Are dogs that can't make it at tracks like Derby Lane/Tampa or Jacksonville/Orange Park, Hollywood/Flagler or Palm Beach put down? Do you know? They're not. Those are top-10 tracks and dogs that grade off at those tracks will be competitive elsewhere.

As usual, Jay, all you can do is snipe. My figures are based on the best information available. They are all estimates, but are still 1000% more scientific than your reference to people who see only the smallest slice of the big picture.

Rock gave you all the reasons why the NGA's breeding/whelping statistics require complete disclosure and accuracy. The numbers of dogs entering the system are clearly known. The number of adoptions can only be an estimate as many are adopted without benefit of an adoption group like 2 of my 5 greyhounds.

Lastly, the fact that there are unregistered greyhounds put into adoption seems to refute GPL's notion that every unregistered pup was "culled," doesn't it? Those buffoons have never figured out that puppy mortality even exists---how can they speak with authority when they don't know the first thing about dogs? If they are willing to lie or exaggrate about that what else do they make up?

FYI, Jay, greyhounds are registered at any age between tattoo (required before three months) and racing. Few people wait until the last minute as you suggest.

I'm a little disappointed in you, Jay. Sometimes we seem to be making some progress educating you, but it often seems a case of "two steps forward and one step back." I never expect you to be PR, but I do expect you to learn from these exchanges. Every time I think you're starting to "get it" you surprise me by going back into the wild supposition mode.

Whether we get any credit from you or not, whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you lie about it or not, 100% adoption is going to occur while you and the ARA crowd are still trying to figure out whether puppy culling exists or how many parts per million of cocaine constitutes abuse.

(NOTE TO OTHERS: Don't take this the wrong way---Jay and I always speak to each other like this )

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by lizbud
This thread is not meant to be a debate between pro & con. It's information about groups who oppose racing for profit & explotation of the Greyhound breed.

I'm sorry, Lizbud, but if you post a list of groups that put out uninformed, ridiculous propaganda about greyhound racing and expect to get a free pass, you're badly mistaken. Go to GPL's web site and read up on "puppy culling" and "4D" meat---the stuff they post there is utter nonsense. If it wasn't outright slander it would be laughable.

That list of groups and individuals has filled your head and thousands of others with incredible fallacies that defy description. If you have the slightest intellectual curiousity, you would ask some pointed questions of the racing people who post here. You've got the full attention of one of the most experienced trainers in the industry and a world renowned pedigree expert (Rockingship), a breeder and owner of multiple kennels (greyandmoregreys), and a racing owner (yours truly). It may interest you to know I started out AR, but asked questions and poked around. The gulf between what I was told and what I saw was vast. I strongly suggest you do so, too.

There are two sides to every story. If you listen to both sides and come to a decision, no matter what it is, no one can fault you. If you listen to one side only, you are a fool.

Mr. Levin, whose site you proudly listed, listened to both sides and apparently thought that his original sources were no longer reliable. Maybe you should listen, too.

[7up]

Just to clarify what I meant was the NGA will not put a system into place where the owners must specify by which means their dogs exited the racing system. One question on a form they aleady fill out, would do it. Where did your dog go? Check one... adoption group, owner's couch, back to farm, research lab, put down, etc.

I know they publish the number of greyhounds whelped. I don't know why Martin does not begin with that number in his estimates. Obviously not every dog whelped who does not end up registered, falls into the "catch all" puppy mortality figure.

So to reiterate, I do not see how anyone can know what percentage of greyhounds are put down every year unless the NGA takes the initiative and counts them and it seems to me that they would want to do this if the numbers are as low as Martin estimates because it would benefit the reputation of the racing industry and put this whole argument (the biggest beef folks have about racing) to rest. And it would certainly show more concern for the welfare of the dogs they care so much about.

There is no other way to know if all greyhounds are being adopted or how many more we have left to go.

Jay

[jcsperson]

We went through all this with Ryan over on GT in the "Colorado" thread. She wanted a database NGA members could use to indicate the disposition of retired dogs, remember?

What would prevent the owner from simply checking the box "adopted" and sending it back to the NGA? Who would verify it actually happened? The new owner? The adoption group? If the owner did it, would you trust them? If the adoption group did it, wouldn't they have to register with the NGA as an official group? Would AR groups do it? If they reported every dog it might blow their stupid "20,000" figures right out of the water. Some of them openly discourage adopters from contacting owners. Most of these groups despise the NGA---what would make them want to work with them and help prove their figures?

What about where the owner gives the dog away directly? I got two of my five pets that way. Who verifies that?

Who monitors all this stuff? The NGA is tiny. I doubt they have even 20 full and part-time employees.

Jay, you and I know that if such a system were in place GPL and Grey2K still wouldn't believe "the numbers." There are still groups publishing "30,000" and "50,000" for crying out loud. Talk about out of touch with reality.

The NGA does not publish whelping figures, it publishes numbers of litters. Included in those, as we've repeated ad nauseum for you, are every stillbirth and puppy mortality. GPL and their ilk simply multiply average litter size, 6.5, times the number of litters, subtract the number of registrations from that and come up with the total of culls not taking into account the fact that puppy mortality even exists or that, as you pointed out, some unregistered dogs are available for adoption. To GPL they're just dead---no questions---all culled. Because of the way they use the figures, those idiots even have the stillborn pups listed as "culled." How stupid is that?

Let's use 2002 for an example. There were 27,142 registrations and 5,205 litters. The litters were actually whelped in 2002, but the registrants could have been born in 2000, 2001 or 2002 because pups are registered at different ages. For the purposes of this example, we'll pretend they were all whelped in 2002. 6.5 times 5,205 is 33,832 whelps, minus 27,142 is 6690, or 19.7% of total whelps. Let's just say greyhound farmers achieved the low end of most puppy mortality estimates of 15%; that leaves 4.7% of the puppies surviving to registration age. 5% of 6690 is 334 dogs. Even in the unlikely event that farmers somehow outperformed the results of every veterinary study of puppy mortality out there and achieved 10% that's still 669 pups.

Considering the margin for error inherent in any estimate, I don't think 300, 400 or even an unlikely 600 dogs change my figures all that much.

[jcsperson]

I just added up the litters reported from January through August 2004 and the total is 3,255. Multiplied by 1.5 we get 4,882, a reasonable projection of what the year-end total will be. If that holds up it will continue the downward trend in breedings over the past several years:

2004 4882*
2003 5171
2002 5205
2001 5015
2000 5234
1999 5266
1998 5034
1997 5192
1996 5438
1995 5749

*est.

If something close to the top figure holds up, overall numbers will have been reduced by 15% in the past decade and 39% from the all-time peak of 8049 in 1991.

With breeding numbers down and adoption numbers up dramatically every year, isn't it possible to assume that full adoption is achievable?

Is there any popular breed that can come close to making such a claim? Does the AKC publish similar numbers for all their breeds? Are AKC breeders required to provide documentation of breedings and litters? Who ensures that pups raised and sold for profit find suitable homes? Who are the watchdogs for Lab welfare, GSD welfare or Pit Bull welfare?

Who protests stuff like this or even cares?
CLOVERLEAF AIDS HS IN LABRADOR RESCUE
http://www.greybase.com/index.asp?mn...icle&artid=197

Cloverleaf track personnel nursed those dogs back to health until they could go to shelters. All the survivors found homes. I wonder if that story made Greyhound Network News.

[rockingship]

What is a bit disturbing to me....and I'm entirely tired of debating the issue.....is when people see the AR propaganda, and hear the voices of political action groups like GPL and Grey2K....and then are appraised of the facts by those of us who have actual empirical knowledge of the breed and years of experience with the breed as professionals....but then somehow come to the conclusion that "the truth is somewhere in the middle".

In fact, the truth is nowhere near "the middle". The truth is that it is patently unreasonable for anyone to assert or assume that the majority of people, who rely upon their greyhounds performances to earn their living, or their families' living, do so by neglecting and abusing their racing greyhounds.

And even more incongruous, to suppose that a sporting industry, which is driven by profit, is rife with inhumane treatment of the creatures whose actual racing performances provide this profit....especially when the difference between a racing greyhound who might earn 50K in a career, and one who might never earn a penny, is about 7/10ths of a second over the course of a 30 second-long race.

There is a cause and effect relationship between the quality of care one affords their greyhounds, and the subsequent racetrack performances of those greyhounds----and the money they can earn.

While some caretakers are more skilled and perceptive than others, the overwhelming majority of them will achieve predictable results from an average kennel of dogs, and provide exceptional care for their racing greyhounds. If they didn't they would soon find themselves unemployed or penniless, or both.

In any profession involving the caretaking of animals, there are always those who fall outside the performance mean----or basic husbandry standards----whether by exceeding or falling below----just as there are racing greyhounds who greatly exceed or fall below the performance mean for the breed.

Sadly, we only hear of the activites of the handful of maladjusted individuals who occasionally abuse or neglect their racing greyhounds, or run afoul of the rules. This makes for sensational storytelling.....but it disgusts true racing professionals even more than it does the public at large.

When the insinuation is further made, that neglect and abuse of highly-bred and finely tuned racing athletes is the norm, and not the abberration----those of us who are racing professionals, and who know that this is not the case, by virtue of decades of experience within the racing profession and with the breed, feel slurred and injured by the accusation. That shouldn't be hard for anyone to understand.

What I think I see here, seems to be a group of people who are speaking out against a "system" which employs racing greyhounds as money-earning athletes. That's fine. Racing isn't for everybody.

What I hope they can learn, is that the vast majority of greyhound professionals they will encounter on these message boards, and/or in their personal lives, are extremely dedicated and well versed handlers and caretakers of racing greyhounds, and unabashed custodians and champions of the racing breed.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by rockingship
What is a bit disturbing to me....and I'm entirely tired of debating the issue.....is when people see the AR propaganda, and hear the voices of political action groups like GPL and Grey2K....and then are appraised of the truth by those of us who have actual empirical knowledge of the breed and years of experience with the breed as professionals....but then somehow come to the conclusion that "the truth is somewhere in the middle.

That is my pet peeve, Rock.

It's intellectual laziness. For many it's too much of a bother to actually read and think to come to a meaningfull conclusion---"splitting the difference" is the easy way out. People think they're compromising when they are really giving equal weight to two arguments regardless of their merit. That's why AR groups purposely exaggerate their numbers with preposterous ideas like puppy culling. They know some people are gullible enough to believe them outright. They also know many people will be inclined to "split the difference" which will always make the numbers far worse than they actually are.

[wolfie]

That's wonderful that you all care about your dogs, their health, ect... but really isn't greyhound racing all about money and winning? If you just wanted your dogs to have fun you could do lure coursing (for fun... and for their whole life). I have never made $1 off my dogs, but they are my family. I keep them their whole lives because I love them. If owners really cared about them they would keep their dogs.

If one owns dozens of dogs this is not practical. There are thousands of people, however, who want them.

Then only aquire new dogs if you can care for them. If there were less greyhounds in need of a home, then those people who would adopt greyhounds might get a dog from the pound instead. And save some of those millions of innocent lives that get euthanized at the pounds every year.

I'm sorry but you can't be a 'responsible owner' if you dump your dog off at rescue after his career, and add to the huge dog overpopulation.

I'm done with this thread.

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by guster girl
I definitely want to learn more, from both sides. As long as it's done nicely, without making the people who have differing opinions feel stupid, then, I'm all for it.

I agree. And I think we are lucky we have new members who are willing and able to articulate and debate boths sides of the issue with facts. I don't have anything to contricute to the disccusion, but I have enjoyed reading and learning fromthe back and forth debate.