Opinions or facts? Bush & Kerry

[heinz57_79]

There is a HUGE difference between abortion and the death penalty. The death penalty is applied to criminals who knowingly, willingly take the lives of others, for no reason other than they could. (On a side note, I don't buy the "I was abused as a child" defense.. every adult choices regarding how abuse etc affects them in life) Abortion, if done "right", is to benefit all involved. The mother, being unable to care for a child; the child, not being born into a bad situation; etc. It should NOT be used as a form of birth control, and neither should the morning after pill. But until YOU have been in the position where YOU need to make the choice to terminate YOUR pregnancy, to 'get rid of' a child that is a part of you, you really cannot pass judgement. It is one of the hardest decisions a woman would have to make.

I think it's sad that a person's views of today's world can be so black and white, especially with the world being in so many shades of grey. My father is also very black and white, and because of this there is a good chance he will never see any grandkids that come along.

Kay has a quote in her sig (or she did, i'm not sure if it's still there) from Kerry, about equal rights for EVERYONE regardless of religion, race, creed, sexual preference, etc. THAT is what this country needs. Not someone who is pushing to change the constitution to exclude a HUGE number of American citizens. Personally, I would be very wary of anyone wanting to do something so drastic. What Bush does not realise is that there is a large conservative GLBT community, who's votes he will now lose because he fails to recognise them.

I am registered as an independent. I couldn't care less whether a candidate is Democratic or Republican. It's all about what they stand for. Bush is all about throwing us into war, which is has no experience in. Kerry has been there, been in combat. Who would you choose to run your computer company? A chef, or Bill Gates?

Harmanie, like everyone else said, it's not a bad thread. And when you ask for facts, it's a good thing. The only thing is, fact is often shaded by opinion. It's just life. If you check out a website or news channel that is conservative, you'll see a lot of Kerry-bashing. The opposite will be true if you check out the liberal sites, news channels. Just remember to take everything with a grain of salt.

[Soledad]

I don't support the death penalty because I think it's a flawed system that actually spends more of the tax payers' money, does nothing to prevent crime and is primarily used on minorities. I might also add that the sheer number of people on death row who have been freed because of DNA evidence is evidence enough for even the staunchest death penalty proponents to call loudly for major systematic changes.

I also find it barbaric and not worthy of a highly civilized country.

But more importantly I don't believe the government should have a right to take a life. Just like I don't believe the government has a right to tell me what to do with my body.

[buckner]

Originally posted by the gryphon
So in the case of rape it's okay to (in your words) murder?

No, I never said that. If you reread my post you would see what I said. I stated that I would not condone it anymore than I would for using it as birth control. However, I did state that I would respect her decision even more. Why? Because that woman did not choose to take the risk of getting pregnant. If I could make the choice for a woman who got raped, I would choose to not have an abortion. Someone outside of rape or incest chose to have sex. If you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to take the consequences.

If I got raped, I certainly would not get an abortion. Why? I disagree with abortion. Simple as that. It IS murder.

Soledad: So you can honestly justify murdering an innocent baby, along with not being able to justify someone proven guilty of a crime? When I say proven, I don't mean found - I mean proven. Proven either genetically through DNA or publically. If so, that's just plain unethical.

[Uabassoon]

Does that mean that I'm going to say no to every abortion reason? No. There's three cases where I say it's up to the mother - rape, incest, or severe danger to her. Does this mean I condone it? No. It means I'll respect her decision and support her, if she decided to have an abortion for one of those three cases.

You say that you would respect the decision of a woman who was raped to have an abortion. She didn't choose to be raped, so even though you don't agree with it you would still respect her choice to have it aborted.

That thought is a pro-choice thought. You think that it's acceptable for a woman to choose an abortion if it's under one of those three circumstances.

However if you are pro-life you are choosing to make abortions illegal, meaning that a woman who was raped would not be able to chose to abort the child.

That is why people are saying abortion is not black and white. Pro choice isn't saying "I think abortions are great and everyone should have one" Being pro choice means that you think a woman should have the right to choose if she wants to abort the child, it's not about you personally. It's totally possible to be stuck in the middle of both pro life and pro choice because of the situations you stated. That's why abortion isn't just a black and white situation.

[CathyBogart]

Oh look, an abortion debate....maybe that should be taken to another thread to get beaten to death yet again by a bunch of people who are never going to agree (and many of you know what my EXTREMELY strong opinion on this is) and let this thread go back to its original topic.

[the gryphon]

Originally posted by heinz57_79
Kay has a quote in her sig (or she did, i'm not sure if it's still there) from Kerry, about equal rights for EVERYONE regardless of religion, race, creed, sexual preference, etc. THAT is what this country needs. Not someone who is pushing to change the constitution to exclude a HUGE number of American citizens. Personally, I would be very wary of anyone wanting to do something so drastic. What Bush does not realise is that there is a large conservative GLBT community, who's votes he will now lose because he fails to recognise them.

You know, this is interesting. It's not so much that I believe everyone should believe as I do, but I FEAR a president who would use the constitution to limit a civil right. There are virtually NO cases where I'd support using the constitution to limit rights. We have a very short list of where that's been done. Nifty things like prohibition.
For me, THAT along with his other neo-conservative policies, and proposals scare me. As does his apparent equation of Al Qaeda with Iraq. My fear, once he equates it with one country, he'll equate it with others. Where does that end? And does that actually eradicate Al Qaeda? It hasn't so far. Not even in Afganistan. (where I supported the President's decision)

[Soledad]

Originally posted by buckner
Soledad: So you can honestly justify murdering an innocent baby, along with not being able to justify someone proven guilty of a crime? When I say proven, I don't mean found - I mean proven. Proven either genetically through DNA or publically. If so, that's just plain unethical.

I could easily do the same thing to you...so you could honestly justify holding a living, innocent woman's body hostage for nine months and force her to carry and give birth to a child she does not want?

My point was I do not wish for the government to interfere in a woman's medical issue. There are many, many reasons for having an abortion and very few of them are done as a method of birth control. It is never a nice or happy thing to do, but that's life, and sometimes you have to make tough decisions.

But making a decision about your own body and what will or will not happen to it is not analagous to the government killing criminals, no matter how hard you try to make that case.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
I could easily do the same thing to you...so you could honestly justify holding a living, innocent woman's body hostage for nine months and force her to carry and give birth to a child she does not want?

I am going to put a frigging knife in my forehead.

I agree.

[Harmanie]

Well I have a lot of family members out on duty right now and it really does scare me so much every time I hear the death counts on the radio etc. etc. Like what would I do if I heard one of my cousins names or one of my unkles names? I don't know how I could handle it. So in a way I am sooo glad that I am not old enough to vote because quite frankly, I'm not sure if I would really vote this year.

If I had to, does my families fate rest on my vote? That would be pretty darn freeky ya know. My opinion is that this election is probably by far one of the most hardest elections in history. Because Bush has supported our troops but I think that it is time for them to come home. I mean, My cousin was supposed to come home a while ago but they told him that he couldn't because all of the visits and stuff were canceled. They were orders from someone. I forgot who. I miss him. So, ya I think that this war has been carried out enough. Its not that I don't support the troops or nothing cause I do with all my heart but enough is enough ya know?

[lizzielou742]

Harmanie:

I think it's great that even though you aren't old enough to vote, you're educating yourself on the issues. The hard part is that "facts" to one side are lies to the other, and vice versa. You can't even believe what you hear on the news half the time (or more) anymore. It takes a lot of independent research, gathering as much information as I can on my own, and making informed decisions from there for me to feel confident in my vote. Because, you're right, the livelihood of future generations does depend on citizens utilizing their right to vote, and making sure their votes are counted (read up on electronic voting machines, it's scary) and making their voices heard. Especially this election. The country is pretty evenly divided, and what will make the difference, what will change our future for better or worse, is how many people actually show up to vote on Nov. 2nd.

Here's some links you might enjoy, if you haven't checked them out already.

http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm
http://www.vote-smart.org/index.htm
http://www.dinnerforamerica.com/

PS. Sorry your thread got moved to the Dog House and turned into a bit of a fight.

[Harmanie]

Thanks lizzie, Sense I found out that my family has been going to war, I wanted to learn the "reall deal" to make sure I knew what I really wanted to know. I wanted to form my own opinion and not base mine off of some one elses you know what I mean? Cause then I'm not really stating how I feel, I am stating how some one elso feels and then I am just basically wasting my breath and then every one elses time. Now whats the sense in that? Thanks for the info. I definetly know that you'll never really get the reall info because one web station will always be bashing the other to make themselvs look better. Well....what can you do? hehe

[lizzielou742]

Harmanie- Exactly how I feel. It's probably just about impossible to get news and/or facts in a completely unbiased way, unless you witness it yourself. For news, I check out the BBC Channel or http://news.bbc.co.uk/ . It's a pretty good way to see how we look from the outside.

I hope your family members all return home safe and sound, as soon as possible. I had a dream last night that two of my best friends were fighting in Iraq, and it scared the heck out of me. I did have one friend who went there and came back once already, and is now serving his second tour of duty there, but I can't imagine how it must feel to have family there. {{{hugs}}}

[lizzielou742]

Oh, here's the link to the "Americas" new page on BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/default.stm

[the gryphon]

I often visit BBC to see the outside perspective...I also visit al jazeera, though my beau says the English and arabic versions don't have much similarity. Harmanie, I hope your family is all safe. My beau returned in May. It's soooo good to have him back....though we both expect him to have to return. He's officially been stop lossed now.

[Edwina's Secretary]

In Iraq, there was a leader who showed he had weapons of mass destruction.

This is a good example of opinion or fact. This is NOT a fact. No weapons of mass destruction have been found. Some people are of the opinion there were/are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq but none have been found.