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  1. #1
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    About Prison Conditions (long)

    Seeing part of a comment in the 'OJ is found guilty' thread made me think of a letter written by a neighbour of mine and sent to the editor in one of our local papers. He was commenting on a column written by Art Hanger - an MP in our federal government and chairman of the House of Commons Justice Committee - who some see as too right-wing. I'll let you make your own call.

    The point I wish to make is in bold in my neighbour's letter. His letter follows Art's article.
    ************************************************** ******************************************
    September 10, 2008

    http://www.cochraneeagle.com/index.p...llnews&id=4839

    Arizona’s Sheriff Joe knows how to deal with criminals

    “If you don’t want to do the time;
    don’t do the crime”
    To The Point By Art Hanger

    Sheriff Joe Arpaio has made this slogan popular around Maricopa County, Arizona. Everyone knows Sheriff Joe means business.

    I visited his “Tent City Jail” — a corral of tents set up under the blazing Arizona sun — last month and can say that Sheriff Joe hits the right note in his handling of the county’s trouble-makers. Oh sure, some of the prisoners grumble about the food, about not being able to smoke, or about the stark surroundings and swift discipline if they screw up. But the response is the same from Joe and all the county “keepers”: “If you don’t like it, don’t come back!”

    Sheriff Joe presses his points to the voting public, noting first that his door is always open to them. He conducts tours (lots of interested visitors take pictures of his operation) and advises the taxpayer that he is saving them money while keeping their streets safe. To the potential trouble-maker, his marketing agenda is a simple but effective one.
    The flashing “vacancy” sign on the guard tower is a constant reminder for all who drive by — day or night — that Sheriff Joe always has room at the “Inn”.

    During our visit he talked about the political and special interest groups and civil liberty lawyers who have challenged his programs, but to no consequence. Joe keeps getting re-elected. People love him.
    “None have been successful in shutting me down,” he muses, “because they know that I operate within the Constitution. I have defended my position in court and won. Every sheriff in the country could do what I’m doing if they wanted to but they’re not. They compromise.”

    Driving along Durango Street on the south edge of Phoenix, it is not hard to spot Sheriff Joe’s domain, the Estrella Jail.

    There is no question about his commitment to the taxpayers. He keeps his costs down and all the inmates know beyond a doubt that they will not be treated any better than the soldiers who defend their country.

    In fact, in the public waiting room of Estrella Jail, a very visible sign drives home his point: “The next time you want to complain about Tent City, STOP! Instead, think about how hard life is for our soldiers in Iraq.” With this statement are four pictures of U.S. soldiers living in the very harsh battle grounds of Iraq. A picture is worth a thousand words!

    So what do the liberal thinkers have to complain about? The basics, of course: food, clothing, shelter and health care. Joe’s lunch menu consists of bologna sandwiches. Inmates wear pink underwear with black and white striped uniforms. The criminals are reminded of who is in charge in this establishment and the do-gooders on the outside resent his control.

    Accommodations are basic but plentiful. Estrella Jail consists of army tents and cots. Health care is pay-as-you-go with a user fee to see the doctor, thus eliminating unnecessary visits. You work eight hours a day if you choose, or you can be locked up around the clock.

    No question that the basic needs are met and the taxpayers of Maricopa County are proud of Sheriff Joe’s accomplishments.

    My visit was an experience. The offenders know where they stand at all times. The rules are firm and consistent. None are considered part of a social class of abused or downtrodden victims. They have broken the law and are now paying a price for their crimes.

    To me, Estrella Jail focused on responsibility and accountability for one’s actions.

    Do you think the jails in our country reflect these same values? Should we be making some dramatic changes? I value your opinion, so e-mail [email protected].
    Art Hanger is the Member of Parliament for Calgary Northeast and the chairman of the House of Commons Justice Committee

    Copyright © 2008 Cochrane Eagle.


    September 24, 2008


    http://www.cochraneeagle.com/index.p...llnews&id=4913

    Did Arizona’s Sheriff Joe really inform MP Hanger?

    Dear Editor:

    Re: “Arizona’s Sheriff Joe knows how to deal with criminals”, by Conservative MP Art Hanger in the Sept. 10 Cochrane Eagle.

    Calgary MP and Commons Justice Committee Chairman Art Hanger’s choice of Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio as a hero is unfortunate. Also unfortunate is his praise for the Maricopa County jail system that the sheriff administers.

    Critics of the Maricopa County jail system consider it to be inhumane and cite harsh conditions, including inadequate food and shelter, inadequate medical care, overcrowding, unsafe conditions, and instances of excessive use of force.

    Mr. Hanger visited the sheriff’s “Tent City Jail.” Describing it as “a corral of tents set up under the blazing Arizona Sun,” he figures that the sheriff “hits the right note in handling the county’s trouble-makers.”
    Surplus army tents are an economical way to warehouse 20 or 25 inmates at a time. Under the blazing Arizona sun, however, temperatures inside these tents have reportedly reached 150 F at the level of the top bunks. That is over 65 C.

    This is as warm as the inside of a closed automobile on a hot day. Dogs can die if left in this type of environment for a few hours. Is it really okay for human beings to be imprisoned in these conditions?
    Mr. Hanger seems impressed with the jail system’s health care which he describes as “pay-as-you-go with a user fee to see the doctor, thus eliminating unnecessary visits.”

    The health care system was described in darker terms in May of this year in an article by Mary K. Reinhart in the East Valley Tribune. She wrote:
    “More than 60 Maricopa County jail inmates have died since 2004, many from illnesses that would be treatable in normal medical settings. . . . Since 2004, the dead include two newborns and a 17-year-old boy who writhed in pain for six hours before he was seen by medical staff. . . . Juries have ruled in case after case that the county was at fault. The county has settled other cases to avoid trial and still more cases are in litigation. Taxpayers have paid out more than $30 million in settlements, verdicts and attorneys’ fees since 1993” — the year Joe Arpaio became sheriff.

    I’ll bet that Sheriff Joe didn’t mention this to Mr. Hanger, or that a respected physician terminated his services to the Correctional Health Service earlier this year because the health care being delivered did not meet constitutional minimums.

    Is this what is to be expected from “pay-as-you-go with a user fee” health care?

    Mr. Hanger has written that, to the potential troublemaker, Sheriff Arpaio’s marketing agenda is a “simple but effective one,” and that the sheriff “knows how to deal with criminals.”

    Is this really accurate?

    In an apparent attempt to determine if his approach to incarceration was reducing recidivism rates (the extent to which released inmates commit other offences), Sheriff Arpaio commissioned researchers at Arizona State University to conduct a study. The researchers did so and concluded that the sheriff’s methods had no significant effect on recidivism.

    I doubt that the sheriff mentioned this study to Mr. Hanger.
    The results of the sheriff’s study are supported by information contained on the Public Safety Canada website. A research summary on that website states that “. . . harsher criminal justice sanctions had no deterrent effect on recidivism. On the contrary, punishment produced a slight (three per cent) increase in recidivism.”
    Mr. Hanger has written regarding the jail that, “Accommodations are basic but plentiful,” and “no question that the basic needs are met . . .”
    The jail system provides inmates two meals per day. According to the sheriff’s website, meals cost the jail 15 cents each. Is a 15-cent meal really “plentiful”?

    Here is some of what the American Civil Liberties Union had to say in August of this year about accommodations in Sheriff Joe’s jails:
    “Pre-trial detainees at Maricopa County Jail are regularly given moldy bread, rotten fruit and other contaminated food. Detainees with serious medical, mental health and dental needs receive inadequate care, and they are routinely denied beds or bunks at intake, forcing them to sleep on the floor. Additionally, severe overcrowding in three of the jail’s facilities has created extremely dangerous environments by significantly increasing the potential for violence among inmates.”

    I’ll bet Sheriff Joe didn’t tell Mr. Hanger about this either.

    Mr. Hanger has also indicated that,
    “. . . taxpayers of Maricopa County are proud of Sheriff Joe’s accomplishments.” On this point Mr. Hanger is correct. The sheriff is very popular.

    However, the sheriff is not without his critics. Those critics include Amnesty International, the American Civil Liberties Union, the American Jewish Committee, the Arizona Ecumenical Council, a newspaper called the Phoenix New Times, and the mayor of Phoenix, Arizona.

    Not all of the sheriff’s critics are focused on the county jail system. Much attention is being paid to the sheriff’s “immigration sweeps.” These sweeps are an attempt to apprehend illegal aliens. They prompted the mayor of Phoenix to write the U.S. Attorney General earlier this year to request that the FBI investigate Sheriff Joe Arpaio based on his “pattern and practice of conduct that includes discriminatory harassment, improper stops, searches and arrests.”
    It may be that Sheriff Joe’s use of questionable tactics extends beyond the operation of the jail.

    Mr. Hanger refers, perhaps sarcastically, to the critics of the Maricopa jail system as “liberal thinkers” and “do-gooders.” They may be both those things but that doesn’t necessarily make them wrong.
    Come to think of it, the most notable liberal thinker and do-gooder in history was Jesus Christ. And didn’t he have some issues with a harsh penal system? People still remember that he was imprisoned and then tortured to death. Go figure!

    There’s a whole lot of room for improvement in our prison system. For example, I would like to see prisoners required to work to help pay for the cost of feeding and housing them. Everyone else has to work to live, why shouldn’t they?

    What we have to remember when making changes to the jail systems though, is that most inmates will eventually be released back into society. If they have been properly rehabilitated they will become assets to our society. If they have not, they will continue to pose problems and cost society more money and grief.

    Mr. Hanger, at the end of his article on the Maricopa Jail system, asked for input from readers relative to changes that should be made to Canadian prisons. In one way this is great. We, as taxpayers, pay for the prison system; we should therefore have a say in how it is run.
    Looked at in another way, an elected official asking for tips from the general public on how to improve a prison system is sort of like a farmer asking his bank manager how to heal his sick pig. The farmer should be asking a veterinarian.

    Mr. Hanger should, perhaps, be asking criminologists, psychologists and other experts in the field of human behaviour how we can design a penal system that does a better job of putting inmates back on the straight and narrow, with the least effort and the least cost to us, as taxpayers.

    We have to incarcerate certain types of offenders. Some of them should be locked away for life. Once we incarcerate them, however, we as responsible men and women, have a moral responsibility to set an example and provide humane prison conditions.
    Sheriff Joe Arpaio, in my opinion, does not do this.
    T.G. Storey
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda

  2. #2
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    Arpaio and his comparing troops to convicts is stupid and not even funny.

    Soldiers and criminals do have a choice as to where they end up- but that's about it.

    The Hanging Sheriff has always been a pompous, smarmy attention seeking public figure.

    I do agree with not giving some criminals the luxury of benefits that some common citizens can't even afford. But, his denial of even the most basic medical care to inmate at his tent jail is really inhumane.

    I don't agree with the ACLU and all the other idiot groups that are challenging Arpaio and his handling of his charges, but think of what 30 million dollars could have been spent on to prevent any other lawsuits from being lost by the county where the jail is located.

    Yep the taxpayers are happy with the way he runs his jails, until little Joey, Hubby Tom or Uncle Chuck end up there for some low level crime.

    Then, the place becomes a horror of horrors-a place where NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO STAY.

  3. #3
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    Don't do the crime you can't do the time. That's how I see it. And RICHARD you're right, criminals DO have a choice. I get so ticked off when prisoners, who HAD a choice on whether to commit a crime, complain about the prison conditions. 3 squares a day, unlimited use of a law library, paid dental care, paid medical care...what in the hell is there to complain about?? There are homeless people on the street going without who deserve such conditions!!! Hey, it ain't the Howard Johnson and you're not there on a vacation. You COMMITED A CRIME. Hellllooooooo!!!!!

    Rest In Peace Casey (Bubba Dude) Your paw print will remain on my heart forever. 12/02
    Mollie Rose, you were there for me through good times and in bad, from the beginning.Your passing will leave a hole in my heart.We will be together "One Fine Day". 1994-2009
    MooShoo,you left me too soon.I wasn't ready.Know that you were my soulmate and have left me broken hearted.I loved you like no other. 1999 - 2010See you again "ONE FINE DAY"
    Maya Linn, my heart is broken. The day your beautiful blue eyes went blind was the worst day of my life.I only wish I could've done something.I'll miss your "premium" purr and our little "conversations". 1997-2013 See you again "ONE FINE DAY"

    DO NOT BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE!!

  4. #4
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    Donna - did you read everything that was written here? I pasted this here again:

    most inmates will eventually be released back into society. If they have been properly rehabilitated they will become assets to our society. If they have not, they will continue to pose problems and cost society more money and grief.

    Mr. Hanger, at the end of his article on the Maricopa Jail system, asked for input from readers relative to changes that should be made to Canadian prisons. In one way this is great. We, as taxpayers, pay for the prison system; we should therefore have a say in how it is run.
    Looked at in another way, an elected official asking for tips from the general public on how to improve a prison system is sort of like a farmer asking his bank manager how to heal his sick pig. The farmer should be asking a veterinarian.

    Mr. Hanger should, perhaps, be asking criminologists, psychologists and other experts in the field of human behaviour how we can design a penal system that does a better job of putting inmates back on the straight and narrow, with the least effort and the least cost to us, as taxpayers.

    We have to incarcerate certain types of offenders. Some of them should be locked away for life. Once we incarcerate them, however, we as responsible men and women, have a moral responsibility to set an example and provide humane prison conditions.
    And from RICHARD'S post:
    I do agree with not giving some criminals the luxury of benefits that some common citizens can't even afford. But, his denial of even the most basic medical care to inmate at his tent jail is really inhumane.

    I don't agree with the ACLU and all the other idiot groups that are challenging Arpaio and his handling of his charges, but think of what 30 million dollars could have been spent on to prevent any other lawsuits from being lost by the county where the jail is located.

    Yep the taxpayers are happy with the way he runs his jails, until little Joey, Hubby Tom or Uncle Chuck end up there for some low level crime.

    Then, the place becomes a horror of horrors-a place where NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO STAY.
    Do you mean, Donna, that even the low-level offenders should be treated like scum? If we do that, and most of them are back on the street one day (which happens), we will have directly contributed to having a great increase in the number of scummy people on the street.

    There ARE offenders who are owed no favours or special treatment. This is made clear by both the original writer of the letter, and by R's post. There are MANY exceptions, however - and our attitude towards them says much more about us than it does about them.

    They cannot all be painted with one brush.
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda

  5. #5
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    Catty1,

    I'm talking about hardened, career criminals not people who j-walk or have overdue parking tickets.

    Rest In Peace Casey (Bubba Dude) Your paw print will remain on my heart forever. 12/02
    Mollie Rose, you were there for me through good times and in bad, from the beginning.Your passing will leave a hole in my heart.We will be together "One Fine Day". 1994-2009
    MooShoo,you left me too soon.I wasn't ready.Know that you were my soulmate and have left me broken hearted.I loved you like no other. 1999 - 2010See you again "ONE FINE DAY"
    Maya Linn, my heart is broken. The day your beautiful blue eyes went blind was the worst day of my life.I only wish I could've done something.I'll miss your "premium" purr and our little "conversations". 1997-2013 See you again "ONE FINE DAY"

    DO NOT BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE!!

  6. #6
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    Well...jaywalkers and folks with overdue tickets usually don't do time. There are others that do, and will be back on the streets - they aren't "hardened". Not everyone in jail is - that was my point, and that of others.
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda

  7. #7
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    What about self-defense crimes: involuntary manslaughter? Somebody comes at you with a chainsaw so you shoot them fatally. Are you really a horrible person deserving of this jail? You might be the most law abiding person in the world, a volunteer, an organ donor, have saved somebody from drowning type of model citizen, but you commited a crime so you get the same "don't do the crime if you can't to the time deal"?

    What about last winter when I hit a patch of ice and spun head-on into a van? If I had killed the guy should I get these types of conditions?

    What about the hypothetical man who steals the loaf of bread to feed his starving family. Desperation drives people to crime even though they aren't bad people. Put them in 165F conditions and feed them mold?

    Teenagers who are caught with drugs? Do they need to learn to be citizens and find a job they can do and learn to budget and that kind of stuff to get them on the right track to living in society, or do we need to put them in these horrible conditions and teach them nothing but hate?
    "There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion."

    Lord John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRescue452 View Post
    What about self-defense crimes: involuntary manslaughter? Somebody comes at you with a chainsaw so you shoot them fatally. Are you really a horrible person deserving of this jail? You might be the most law abiding person in the world, a volunteer, an organ donor, have saved somebody from drowning type of model citizen, but you commited a crime so you get the same "don't do the crime if you can't to the time deal"?

    What about last winter when I hit a patch of ice and spun head-on into a van? If I had killed the guy should I get these types of conditions?

    What about the hypothetical man who steals the loaf of bread to feed his starving family. Desperation drives people to crime even though they aren't bad people. Put them in 165F conditions and feed them mold?

    Teenagers who are caught with drugs? Do they need to learn to be citizens and find a job they can do and learn to budget and that kind of stuff to get them on the right track to living in society, or do we need to put them in these horrible conditions and teach them nothing but hate?
    I agree with this. I don't think self-defense should be a crime at all. In fact, I think you should get an award for shooting a chain-saw wielding psychopath who broke into your home. I don't think anyone should go to prison for an accident, like you described. I like to think our justice system is still functional enough to not allow that to happen. I think the man stealing bread for his family ought to be taught about the public aid available (food stamps) for such cases, and should be put into a job training program so he can learn a skill with which to support his family.

    I also do not believe in throwing juveniles in jail for minor crimes such as vandalism, skipping school, drinking beer, smoking pot. I believe juveniles need to be sent to rehabilitation facilities where they are reformed, counseled and taught to be productive adults. I have, unfortunately, had a bit of experience with the juvenile justice system, having four teenagers. It does society not one ounce of good to put a "delinquent" teenager in jail until he turns eighteen, then let him out. Society needs to fix the problems these kids have, before they become much larger problems in adults.

    But I have seen some pretty darn nice prisons on television. I can't remember the name of the program I was watching, but my husband and I both said, "Dang! That's an awfully nice 'cell' that murderer has ... nicer than the places we lived in college. That's and awfully nice gym ... I don't think we could afford a membership there. And he's getting a free master's degree, when I can't afford to go get mine. Hmmmm .... " Obviously all prisons aren't like this, but they do exist.
    "We give dogs the time we can spare, the space we can spare and the love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made" - M. Facklam

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