While Doing Your Taxes This year

[Puckstop31]

Pembroke Corgi is correct. You cannot win a war against terrorists. Terror is a tactic, not a country, a city, a province.

You are thinking in conventional terms. This is most certainly a unconventional conflict. Still, just as von Clausewitz said, you win wars by destroying an enemies WILL TO FIGHT. So far, the terrorists are winning. Listening to yourselves should be the only proof you need of that.

[wombat2u2004]

Puckstop31 wrote : It is sad though that we are our own worst enemy.

And that is exactly the way it has become.....the IN thing to do !!!!
Just like in SVN before this war, public opinion....swayed by a power hungry media has managed to almost make the US lose any credibility they have left.
These so called terrorists have been nibbling away at your boundaries for years....not because you are in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter.....they simply just want to have a go at you.....they HATE you folks.
So when is the penny going to drop ???? When they knock on your front door ???? Ohhhhhhhh......ok.....that won't happen....right ??? I mean who would EVER think that could happen in the USA.
Do a little bit of waking up to yourselves folks....turn off the TV, throw the rules of engagement in the bin where it belongs, and allow the soldiers to do what they do best !!!!!
Wombat

[lizbud]

It is so disheartening to think our society will spend so much on death and destruction. And it's completely disgusting to think that the only keeping us continually over there is the arrogance of Mr. Bush...he NEVER admit he's wrong, and pulling out now would be admitting defeat to him. How can we ever "win?" All we can ever do is lose more and more lives.

You are so right. All we can hope for is a graceful exit with the least
amount of casualties. The sooner the better.

[Grace]

It is beginning to seem that only the dead will see the end of this war.

[Edwina's Secretary]

"Those who forget history are forced to repeat it."

Over 50,000 dead. Vietnam. We had to stay or communism would be on our shores. The domino theory. Communism taking over the world.

Finally...we cut and ran.

Communism did not spread. In fact, it died a natural death in some places. China is now a HUGE trading partner for us....a country to which we export jobs....and oh yeah...I can get really cheap manicures.

To continue fighting out of hubris....an inability to admit error....a war where neither the enemy nor victory can be defined...is just so sad....

[Grace]

"Declare victory and get out."

George Aiken, R-Vermont
Advice given to Presidents Johnson and Nixon during the Vietnam conflict.

Valid and applicable today.

[Puckstop31]

"Those who forget history are forced to repeat it."

Over 50,000 dead. Vietnam. We had to stay or communism would be on our shores. The domino theory. Communism taking over the world.

Finally...we cut and ran.

Communism did not spread. In fact, it died a natural death in some places. China is now a HUGE trading partner for us....a country to which we export jobs....and oh yeah...I can get really cheap manicures.

To continue fighting out of hubris....an inability to admit error....a war where neither the enemy nor victory can be defined...is just so sad....

There is one major difference between then and now. Communists are motivated by a political aspiration. Terrorists are motivated by a deep religious faith. HUGE. Do you go to church ES? What would you do in the defence of your faith? Now, compare that to what you would do in the defence of your politics.

The world did not destroy itself during the Cold War because of the idea of mutually assured destruction. This current enemy has no such fear. If it were not for the fact I have looked this enemy in the eye and listened to them speak, I would probably be on your side here ES.

[Lady's Human]

I really and truly hate to get into this discussion for a number of reasons, but I must.

The Soviet Union replaced religion with politics. Communism WAS the religion of the official Soviet machine.

It is highly debatable whether MAD worked or not. There were many other factors involved in the relationship between the USSR and the US, MAD was just one of them. Many doctrinal publications released since the end of the Cold War show that there was much discussion inside the USSR about whether or not a nuclear war was winnable, and they had wargamed many scenarios that showed the general staff that MILITARILY a nuclear exchange was a possible win for the Soviet Union.

My point is basically that you cannot make simplistic statements about a situation with many, many variables and have them be accurate in any way, shape or form.

[Puckstop31]

I really and truly hate to get into this discussion for a number of reasons, but I must.

The Soviet Union replaced religion with politics. Communism WAS the religion of the official Soviet machine.

It is highly debatable whether MAD worked or not. There were many other factors involved in the relationship between the USSR and the US, MAD was just one of them. Many doctrinal publications released since the end of the Cold War show that there was much discussion inside the USSR about whether or not a nuclear war was winnable, and they had wargamed many scenarios that showed the general staff that MILITARILY a nuclear exchange was a possible win for the Soviet Union.

My point is basically that you cannot make simplistic statements about a situation with many, many variables and have them be accurate in any way, shape or form.

Interesting comments...

Indeed, one could say that Communism was the religion of the USSR. But their religion did not offer a much better existance after death. Because of this, one could say that a Islamic Terrorists views on religion play a much more important role here, no?

Also, MAD certainly was not the only reason that line was not crossed during the Cold War. The West's victory in the Cold War, IMHO, was more economic than anything else. Ronald Regan, again IMHO, won the Cold War in 1987 when we walked away from SALT II after refusing to negotiate about SDI. He knew that the Soviet Union was on the verge of economic collapse and could not afford to keep up in a SDI race.

I will also agree (as I also have read extensivley on the subject) that the Soviet Union's leadership did think that it could win, in military terms, a nuclear conflict. This is shown by that from sometime in 1978 on their plans for war in central Europe were almost entirely nuclear in their methods. It was also interesting to notice that in some of the papers I read their reasoning for this was not because of a superior conventional capability of the Western powers, but because of terrain, especially in southern Germany, that was much more favorable to defence.

All this being said, I do not think my comments were overly simplified, because it IS simple. This current enemy WANTS to die. Their goal is to either win (which means you and I worship Allah and our wives submit to Sharia Law) or die trying. How does one combat such a threat?

[Edwina's Secretary]

We invaded Iraq because:

- The Iraqi government had Weapons of Mass Destruction which the UN was simply unable to find (opps!)

- Saddam was an evil dictator who was oppressing the freedom loving Iraqi people and we needed to remove him so democracy could flourish in the Middle East.

- GW himself has said there was no connection between Al Qaida and Iraq...at least not at the time we invaded.

We did not go there to fight Fundamentalist Muslims. 9/11 and the fight against Fundamentalist Muslims who want to destroy us because we love freedom -- smoke and mirrors that has been used to confuse and convince the public.

Fundamentalist of ANY kind are scary. The video on another thread -- the Most Hated Family in America - is a scary one. But I don't think we should invade Missouri because there is a nutty family (or church as they would say) in Kansas - advocating death and destruction.

[Marigold2]

The Soviet Union replaced religion with politics. Communism WAS the religion of the official Soviet machine.

This is so true. I remember when I lived in Germany and I worked in a department store. They had those guest workers come in from Communist countries to clean the store at night. I started to talk to some of them and that is exactly what they always said to me.
Communism is our God.
I almost got into a fist fight with this one Yugoslavian girl. I told her to go back to her country and work. If Communism was so great why was she is in Germany, and she said she couldn't find work in her country so I told her to go back home. That didn't sit well with her. She simply had no answer to give except that Communism was God.