Does this bother you too?

[COCatMama]

I just think it's selfish not to allow at least some kind of animal into your home, unless you are a really really busy person or the irresponsible type. But people that are irresponsible enough to 'throw away' a pet that's no longer 'new' or a cute puppy/kitten shouldn't be parents either!!!

[wolf_Q]

Originally posted by Lalania
I just think it's selfish not to allow at least some kind of animal into your home, unless you are a really really busy person or the irresponsible type. But people that are irresponsible enough to 'throw away' a pet that's no longer 'new' or a cute puppy/kitten shouldn't be parents either!!!

I would not use the word "selfish"....not everybody WANTS or even LIKES pets. It is their choice if they want pets or not, and nobody has the right to call them selfish. I, personally, am GLAD to see people that have many kids NOT have a pet...most of the time the pet ends up being neglected or mauled...I HATE it when people get a dog "for the kids." If they seriously think a child can handle the responsibility of a dog, they are wrong. That's not to say that kids and dogs/cats/etc. can't be great together, and the kids actually love them...but the parents should know that they will have to do the real job of caring for the pet. The bottom line is, if the parents do not want a pet, and even if the kids do, and say they will take care of it.....the parents should not get the pet.

[Soledad]

I don't know about this whole line of logic. There are plenty of people who would call people who have 15 animals and no children "selfish" or "crazy", and this seems to be the opposite of that. Who cares? Just let people chose what they do and do not want in their homes.

[toughCookie]

Lalania

you call people who don't want pets selfish. does that mean that people that don't*want* (your words in your post) children are selfish?

I love to see children with pets too, and in general I think they should have them,but it is only my business in my own house, not others. some just don't want them, others may not be allowed to have them in their home or apt. maybe others can't afford them and the children, should the children go without something so they can have a pet? if it were me and if I had children, and they really wanted one, I would get them one if it was practical.

it is just up to each person, like Karen said, to each their own.

[Twisterdog]

I know many, many wonderful, caring parents who don't have any pets. They simply don't care that much about owning animals, but that certainly doesn't make them bad people, or bad parents.

I know many, many wonderful, caring pet owner who don't have any kids. They simply don't care that much about having kids, but that certainly doesn't make them bad people, or bad pet owners.

Everyone has things they care deeply about, and things they can take or leave. For some people their "thing" is animals, for some it's plants, for some it's kids, for some it's their friends or family. To each his or her own, I say. I don't think it's anyone's right to criticise others' likes, dislikes, desires or needs.

I personally don't have any house plants, I don't care about plants and don't want to mess with them. I don't think I'm less of a kind person for it.

However .... I DO agree that a LOT of people that have pets and/or kids shouldn't have them! And I also STRONGLY agree that if you can't afford to feed it, provide it with medical care and a good life, you should NOT have it .... whether "it" happens to be a bird, a dog, or a child.

[Soledad]

I think we get into dangerous territory when we say "only people who can afford it can have kids/animals". My entire family would be eliminated if that were the case. Poor people have enough crap in their lives without being told that they are not entitled to having children or owning pets. Being poor doesn't mean you aren't able to take care of basic needs. Being poor does not make you bad or less of a person or less entitled to a "normal" life.

Pardon me if I don't want to live in a world where only middle class people (who are overwhelmingly white) are the ones with children.

I might add that my grandmother was so poor she had to bathe and wash her animals in the same river. This was the environment my mother grew up in. But my grandmother was a mountain woman and a healer. She and my grandfather were lucky to make any money...they lived completely off the land. They had many animals and none of them went without. They fed their kids and their animals as best they could. My grandmother, too poor to afford anything, would still open her heart to sick and stray animals...nursing them back to health and rehoming them. She did this in the middle of the depression with EIGHT children.

Poor people are human beings, too. Sorry, but I get really upset and hurt by this sort of thing.

[toughCookie]

twisterdog, I totally agree with you!

and, til I got these cats around here, I had ALOT of plants. most did ok, but after I got Muffin and Cookie, I just didn't care for them the same, and had to keep them out of the cats reach, so I eventually gave them all away, or they just didn't make it, being put up where I kept forgetting about them. I do still have just a few now.

[COCatMama]

Like i said there are LITERALLY millions of pets that need homes and, for that matter, thousands of skin kids that need homes. I believe the decision to NOT procreate to be one of the ultimate SELFLESS decisions a person can make. There are WAY too many humans on this planet as there is, We do NOT need anymore and the Planet is well on it's way to dying from us breeding 'like rabbits' and raping it like we do.

Soledad, I did not mean to insult your family, my mom barely had two nickles to rub together too, but I always had food on the table, and a roof over my head and THAT is what matters. Your gramma sounds alot like my great-gramma, she was into nature too and my mom used to go berry picking and things with her when my mom was a kid, I wish I could live that kind of a life instead of this one :/ oh well.
I was referring to those who CANNOT feed or clothe or keep a roof over the head of their kids, stop at one kid if you can't even afford that one, why have more?!?! makes no sense to me. It was different for your gramma because of the Depression, nobody saw that coming, I have some relatives that lived through it too.

My beliefs/opinions are not popular, and I never claimed that they are..... And I have not made the complete decision not to procreate, but I am almost 29 years old and single.... and even if I did procreate someday I'd stop at one.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with feelings. It makes me sad to see some people with a fancy mini van and three little kids and not a single animal in their family.

[Twisterdog]

Soledad ... I didn't say only middle-class, white people should have kids. Sheesh, I didn't mean that at all!

I was talking about the people that can't afford to buy food, clothes and medical care for their kids at all ... and make no effort to do so. They just keep having more kids, and keep expecting the hard-working tax-payers to keep footing the bill for them.

A lot of my extended family is dirt poor. There's nothing wrong with being poor, there's no shame in working hard just to put food on the table. I was not implying if you can't afford a PlayStation2 and a new bike and private tutors for your kids you shouldn't have any. But I DO mean that if you aren't willing to get off your rear and get a job and work to feed your kids, you shouldn't have them.

[COCatMama]

Ahhh TD I could NOT have put it any better myself!!! By having children you are too irresponsible/lazy to look after properly, you are ONLY hurting the CHILDREN, not to mention society by moooooching off the taz payers, oy!

[Soledad]

I know nobody meant that only white, middle-class people can have kids. But that's the reality of saying "only people who can afford them should have kids". I know plenty of families that can afford the children they have yet are completely crap parents. Money is not a determinite of good parenting abilities.

There are plenty of people who have kids that are poor and weren't planning for it. I don't care if they scrape by, the important thing is that they love their children. If that means they have to collect welfare to spend more time with their kids as opposed to working some dead end job where they have to pay for strangers to watch their kids or even worse leave them home alone, then fine.

I think it's all very well and good that we feel we can tell poor people what to do and not do with their lives as we sit on our nice sofas and talk to each other online.

It's a great Christmas spirit thing, isn't it? I doubt Christ would have agreed with this attitude.

[Twisterdog]

I know nobody meant that only white, middle-class people can have kids. But that's the reality of saying "only people who can afford them should have kids".

I'm sorry, but that is not true. Everyone who is white is not middle-class, there are plenty of dirt-poor caucasians in this county. And likewise, there are plenty of very wealthy people of color in this country, too. I would find your statement to be offensive, if I were a person of color. It's rather demeaning ... like saying, "Unless you're white, you are going to be poor." That's so not true, at least in the USA and other modern countries.

If that means they have to collect welfare to spend more time with their kids as opposed to working some dead end job where they have to pay for strangers to watch their kids or even worse leave them home alone, then fine.

I disagree. Having children is like having a dog, or a car, or a big house, IMO ... if you can afford it, great, have one ... have three or four. If you can't afford it, then make plans and better yourself, work hard until you CAN afford it ... then have a kid or get a dog or buy a car. That's basic common sense to me ... if you can't feed it, don't have it. I work for a living. I'm a single parent. I have never taken a penny of public assistance funding. I support myself and my child. It was my choice to have a child, therefore I should pay for him. It wasn't anyone else's choice for me to have a child ... why should I expect other people to give me money for something I chose to do? We all need to take responsiblity for our own actions, and their consequences. Even if wanted to have three or four kids, (which I don't!), I couldn't afford to, and therefore I wouldn't have them. I wouldn't go ahead and have them and expect someone else to pick up the tab. How is that fair?

I think it's all very well and good that we feel we can tell poor people what to do and not do with their lives as we sit on our nice sofas and talk to each other online.

Well, first of all ... I worked hard for my nice sofa and my internet service. I earned the right to have these things because I have a job, and I bust my rear to earn enough money to live, and afford the things I want. I don't expect someone to hand them to me. If I earn the money, I have every right to reap the benefits of that effort. Secondly, aren't people who have child after child after child and can't afford them basically telling us what we can and can't do? You bet they are! They are telling us that we will pay to feed, clothe and educate their numerous children through our tax dollars. We have no choice but to comply. They are telling us what we will do everyday, as determined by how much of our disposable income goes to the government via taxes. I think if I'm forced to pay to raise someone else's six kids, I ought to have a say in the matter of whether they have two more.

Sorry to be harsh about this, but this is one of my big soap boxes.

[Soledad]

Twisterdog -

I am a "person of colour" as you put it, and I know the reality. Look up some statistics, racial minorities ARE NOT financially equal to white Americans. Of course people can get out of that (my family being an example of that) and of course some caucasions are dirt poor. My point was, that the MAJORITY of middle class people are white. When you make a rule dictating that only people of certain financial means can have kids, you are inadvertantly excluding a vast number of racial minorities.

That's really great that you've done what you've done with your life, but that does not mean everyone else can or has the means to do the same. You have to deal with the reality that not everyone in the country has the same value system or experience that you do, and therefore will make different decisions. But, let me ask you, do you think that people CHOOSE to be born into impoverished families? Do you think people CHOOSE to be disadvantaged from the get go?

Do you know why we pay taxes? So we can live in a decent society. That means sometimes we have to carry the weight of others so that we can all have a higher standard of living. Why is that a problem for so many people? Do you understand that we are all connected in life, and one person's misery can affect you? If some woman is busting her butt at some dead end job because of a welfare-to-work programme, and therefore cannot afford or get child care, do you realise how likely that child is to grow up to be either a criminal or a bum?

I'm sorry, but one of MY big soap boxes is when people are so focused on their lives that they can't see the BIG PICTURE.

[AvaJoy]

Originally posted by Karen
And by the way, it's the skin - the dander - that causes allergies, not the hair itself.

Dander is not associated with the skin, but rather it is the cat's saliva from grooming itself which dries and evaporates into the air that causes distress in allergy sufferers.

[Twisterdog]

But, let me ask you, do you think that people CHOOSE to be born into impoverished families? Do you think people CHOOSE to be disadvantaged from the get go?

Nope. I certainly didn't choose to be born impoverished and disadvantaged, but I was, nonetheless. I am not anymore. You can't choose where you start, but you can choose where you end up.

When you make a rule dictating that only people of certain financial means can have kids, you are inadvertantly excluding a vast number of racial minorities.

I can't make a rule dictating anything, neither can you, neither can anyone. Everyone is free to have as many kids as they want to, last time I checked. I just don't want to pay to raise other people's kids, I'm busy raising my own.

That means sometimes we have to carry the weight of others so that we can all have a higher standard of living. Why is that a problem for so many people?

Well, it certainly is a problem for me!! I do well to carry the weight of myself and my own child, I can't carry other people's as well. I don't mind helping someone out through a temporary bad time. We all have those. I DO have a problem paying my hard-earned money out in taxes to support someone their whole life, when they don't get up and get a job and make an effort. I certainly know I'm not alone in those feelings, either.

...people are so focused on their lives that they can't see the BIG PICTURE.

Oh, I do see the big picture, believe me. I guess you and I just see very different views of the "big picture." Such is life. I doubt either one of us is going to change the other's mind.