Muddy is still coughing

[Emeraldgreen]

Sorry about the diagnosis. My Pirate has advanced DM, among a host of other health problems. We treat the DM with Metacam, a dose slightly higher than her weight actually calls for, every day. Plus Gabapentin 100mg once a day every day. Gabapentin is actually a human anti-seizure medication, but for some reason it works on neurological issues too. It's also prescribed for chronic pain. My husband has taken it for back problems. It's much more effective for Pirate than it was for him!

Pirate has been on the Gabapentin for about four months now. Before she was falling over, dragging her back leg, unable to lift her back feet high enough to get around even tiny obstacles. A piece of gravel in the yard was enough to make her fall over. She's much steadier on her feet now; can usually get up on her own; she's never going to convince anyone she's 4 again, but she's doing alright for 15!

Might be worth asking your vet about-it's cheap, easy to administer(I throw the capsule in her dinner bowl) and it certainly won't make things any worse.

Thank you so much for this information! I'm going to speak with my vet about it. May I ask when Pirate was diagnosed with DM? I'm guessing it was 4 months ago because she started the Gabapentin then but I wasn't sure. And I'm also wondering if Pirate had ever had any incontinence issues related with DM?
The wet food seems to trigger an overnight bowel movement, even if we feed it to him early in the day so sadly we've had to cut that out of his diet. He loves to eat (what dog doesn't?!? lol) and he really likes the wetfood mixed in with his crumbles. He reacts the same way to high quality holistic wet food as he does to the cheaper grocery store brands so we've just stopped giving it to him altogether. And this morning, no poop to clean up. Yay!!
Aside from the lazy back foot, it does seem that his other feet sometimes seem to take an exaggerated amount of time to 'right' themselves when he's walking. Not always, just sometimes. And there are times when Finnigan comes bounding along and wants to play with Mud and kind of knocks him over. He doesn't fall completely over or anything but he ends up falling back into the sitting position and he looks a bit miffed at Finn for making it happen.
It sounds like the Gabapentin has really helped Pirate and I'm very excited that there is something out there that could help Muddy. My vet must not know of this. The other thing that is confusing is that she said Metacam does nothing for DM because DM doesn't cause pain. She said Metacam would be useful for the arthritis he might be suffering with but because of his kidney issue she wanted to hold off on the Metacam. Do you think DM is causing Pirate pain and/or do you think the anti-inflammatory properties of Metacam help Pirate with the DM? Sorry for all the questions but I'm so relieved that someone here is familiar with this disease as I've never heard of it before yesterday. Thank you again for your post.

[Glacier]

Thank you so much for this information! I'm going to speak with my vet about it. May I ask when Pirate was diagnosed with DM? I'm guessing it was 4 months ago because she started the Gabapentin then but I wasn't sure. And I'm also wondering if Pirate had ever had any incontinence issues related with DM?

It sounds like the Gabapentin has really helped Pirate and I'm very excited that there is something out there that could help Muddy. My vet must not know of this. The other thing that is confusing is that she said Metacam does nothing for DM because DM doesn't cause pain. She said Metacam would be useful for the arthritis he might be suffering with but because of his kidney issue she wanted to hold off on the Metacam. Do you think DM is causing Pirate pain and/or do you think the anti-inflammatory properties of Metacam help Pirate with the DM?

Pirate has only lived with me for seven months. The DM goes back way farther than that, but her last owner couldn't be bothered to take her to the vet. She's got to be 15 now by my best guess.

Pirate has both bladder and bowel incontinence issues. The bladder problems are unrelated to her spine and are treated with DES. The bowel problems are related to the DM. I clean up feces from her bed pretty much every morning. When she lays down for an extended period of time, she can't control her bowels. Fortunately, she rarely has runny stools so it's usually a pretty easy clean up! I am very careful with her diet. She doesn't get treats very often. On her kibble I usually give her a tablespoon of canned food, just because the other two dogs who eat inside get canned food. Any more than that or a bigger treat and I have a big mess to clean up in the morning! That dog loves her dinner. Nothing keeps her from her food and she'd eat herself sick if I let her! I believe when Pirate stops eating she will be telling me it's time to let her go.

The use of gabapentin in dogs is fairly new. My vet clinic doesn't even carry it. I have to fill the prescription at my pharmarcy, much to the fascination of the pharmacist! Pirate's vet says that when it works for a dog, it works quickly. Pirate responded within a week and seemed to reach maximum improvement in about a month. Pirate doesn't show any negative side effects, but it can apparently have a strong sedating effect on some dogs.

Pirate has other issues that cause pain. She has athritis in her knees and hips and a cancerous tumor on her side. That's what the metacam is actually for, but I think the anti-inflammatory side of it helps her as well. We were going to switch her to Tramadol and Prednisone a few weeks ago, but she almost died while under light sedation for an attempt at removing the tumor. After that I decided to just leave things as they are and keep her comfy for as long as possible. She likely doesn't have much time left, but she's happy and pain free for now.

Good luck. I hope you find something that helps Muddy.

[Ginger's Mom]

I am glad you changed the title, somehow I have missed some updates. I did listen to the video and it didn't sound like my dog's coughing, but I didn't want to say anything until you went to the vet. I hope you and your vet can come up with some plan or medication that helps Muddy.

[katslady]

I am sorry to hear about the DM diagnosis.I had a friend that had a German Sheppard with DM.She tried treatment with acupuncture and Chinese herbs.I don't know if it slowed the degeneration down, but it made her feel better to try something.He had the disease for 4+ years. After 2 years he was completely down in the rearend,but they did not give up. She bought him a wheel chair. He did great in it, he could run and play with the other dogs again.It never seemed to bother him that he could not use his rear legs.He did though have bowel control issues, especially while sleeping.He was very happy in his final 2 years with his wheel chair. He had to be PTS for other issues at 14 years old. My friend is still so thankful she got the wheelchair for him and they had 2 more years together.I wish you good luck for Muddy and hope you find some treatment that will make it easier on both of you.katslady

[Catlady711]

Sorry to hear that Muddy has something like that. I'm not familiar with that one by name. Most of the ones we see at work are more of a head tilt which is a different thing. I did google it and some findings suggest that regular disk problems may be misdiagnosed as DM by xray alone, and suggest an MRI, although I'm not sure how much different the treatment would be.

The Metacam would help the arthritis, however with elevated BUN & Creatinie levels it would not be as safe. Any NSAID can cause problems with already elevated levels of liver and kidneys. However maybe your vet can give you some Dasaquin or something similar that may help a bit without being as damaging to the organs.

I hope Muddy's coughing stops soon and at least has one less thing to bother him. Hopefully Muddy's vet will find a treatment that works for him. Thank you for posting an update.

[critters]

I did google it and some findings suggest that regular disk problems may be misdiagnosed as DM by xray alone, and suggest an MRI, although I'm not sure how much different the treatment would be.
.

You're exactly right. and the treatment would be quite different. Disks can be treated with surgery & steroids or crate rest & steroids, and DM is a diagnosis of exclusion (if everything else is ruled out). You should post on the neuro bb at Handicapped Pets; maybe a myelogram is less expensive than an MRI. It is also an effective diagnostic for disks, unlike plain xrays.

My Buddy was probably one of the first to use gabapentin, over 2 years ago, for zaps from a spinal cord injury. WONDERFUL stuff!!!!!!

[Emeraldgreen]

You're exactly right. and the treatment would be quite different. Disks can be treated with surgery & steroids or crate rest & steroids, and DM is a diagnosis of exclusion (if everything else is ruled out). You should post on the neuro bb at Handicapped Pets; maybe a myelogram is less expensive than an MRI. It is also an effective diagnostic for disks, unlike plain xrays.

My Buddy was probably one of the first to use gabapentin, over 2 years ago, for zaps from a spinal cord injury. WONDERFUL stuff!!!!!!

I just emailed my vet with the information about Gabapentin. That is great to hear of another dog who has been on this drug with success. And very cool that he was one of the first to try it.

Do you happen to know if disk problems can be caused by an old injury? About 4 years ago my brother was visiting from Arizona for Christmas. We got a good dump of snow one day and Muddy came racing up and my brother fell over, onto Muddy. At the time my brother was close to 270 pounds and he flattened Muddy. Both of them were in alot of pain and I called my vet (it was night time) and he had me do all kinds of things like lift his limbs and check each rib and other stuff and Muddy seemed to be okay. He told me to monitor him and bring him in if he got worse. He was fairly stiff for a few days but was his old self not long after. He had an exam after the incident but we didn't have xrays done. I'm wondering now if maybe now in his old age this injury is flaring up and maybe pressing on nerves or something?!?

Cinder & Smoke wrote:

Bowser had just begun to 'show signs' of DM when Doc Mike gave him the first of many 'fold-the-paw-under' tests ... at first he reacted with a
'slightly delayed' return of the paw to it's proper position. But the time
required for him to 'notice' it was turned under and act to correct it's
placement kept increasing as the weeks wore on. I'd test him at home
every few days - and noted his response time was always increasing.

I will keep doing the test each week and see how he is doing. Thank you for telling me about this. It does sound very similar.

Another sign I couldn't ignore was that the toenails on the Bum Paw were being worn down to nubbins from dragging on the pavement. Dear Glacier sent Bowz a package of Sled Dog Booties from Kan-a-Da ... Bowz only
wore ONE at a time, on the left-rear paw, during our hikes in the BigLake Parks. The Bootie greatly reduced the wear on the top of his paw and
allowed his nails to grow back out. He was "supposed to" walk only in the
grass beside the road - but he liked to 'follow Dad' so closely he'd be
bumping into the back of my heels. I learned to listen to the rhythmic
"swish" of his bootie on the road - then reach out with the leash to steer
him back onto the grass. If I heard the "scrape" sound of his nails -
Time to backtrack and find where his boot had pulled off.

We have mostly grass but when Muddy walks on the driveway, I can hear a light scraping of that one foot. The bootie is an excellent idea and I will keep it in mind if his foot looks like it is getting worn or sore.

I have to give Bowz a LOT of credit - he NEVER gave up! We struggled *together* with his DM ... we slowed down a bit, and ended a few walks before Cinder & Smokey were ready to call it quits, but ole Bowz hung in
there with the BigKids till he 'retired' to the Bridge. He never really let the DM get the best of him. Here's the PT thread that started in November of 2006 >>>
Bowser needs Prayers ... Old Age is catching up ...
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=116267

The Prayer Pups will keep Muddy in their prayers!

I hope Muddy will carry on just as Bowser was able to until the end. I will check out his thread and read his story.

[Emeraldgreen]

The use of gabapentin in dogs is fairly new. My vet clinic doesn't even carry it. I have to fill the prescription at my pharmarcy, much to the fascination of the pharmacist! Pirate's vet says that when it works for a dog, it works quickly. Pirate responded within a week and seemed to reach maximum improvement in about a month. Pirate doesn't show any negative side effects, but it can apparently have a strong sedating effect on some dogs.

It sure sounds like Pirate is going through alot! I'm glad she has found you and will have you until the end.
I spoke with my vet on the phone today and I mentioned to her that I knew of someone who had been giving their dog with DM a human medication for seizures but I couldn't remember the name. She was really interested and gave me her email address so I could email the name of the drug to her. She seems open to all kinds of ideas so I'm grateful for that. And she called me today to check up on Muddy instead of the usual call back by a receptionist so I really appreciated that too. Now that I have the name written down, I will email it to her along with the dosage that you included in your previous post. Thank you again for this information!

Ginger's Mom wrote:

I am glad you changed the title, somehow I have missed some updates. I did listen to the video and it didn't sound like my dog's coughing, but I didn't want to say anything until you went to the vet. I hope you and your vet can come up with some plan or medication that helps Muddy.

Yes, I changed the title because I was thinking that it might catch some PT eyes that would recognize the disease. I'm so glad that people are sharing their stories with me. I want to try and do whatever I can for Mud.

katslady wrote:

I am sorry to hear about the DM diagnosis.I had a friend that had a German Sheppard with DM.She tried treatment with acupuncture and Chinese herbs.I don't know if it slowed the degeneration down, but it made her feel better to try something.He had the disease for 4+ years. After 2 years he was completely down in the rearend,but they did not give up. She bought him a wheel chair. He did great in it, he could run and play with the other dogs again.It never seemed to bother him that he could not use his rear legs.He did though have bowel control issues, especially while sleeping.He was very happy in his final 2 years with his wheel chair. He had to be PTS for other issues at 14 years old. My friend is still so thankful she got the wheelchair for him and they had 2 more years together.I wish you good luck for Muddy and hope you find some treatment that will make it easier on both of you.katslady

What a story! I'm hopeful about the 4+ years and I'm inspired by the dog, the owner and the wheelchair. I'm thinking about acupuncture too but have to look into it a bit more. My husband is going in for a treatment soon (his first) and this woman also does it on animals. Thanks for sharing this.

catlady777 wrote:

I did google it and some findings suggest that regular disk problems may be misdiagnosed as DM by xray alone, and suggest an MRI, although I'm not sure how much different the treatment would be.

This is interesting. I don't know what the treatments for disk problems would be but I'm going to look into it as well. I don't think we can afford an MRI at this point but the possibility that he 'may not' have DM is worth investigating for sure.

I hope Muddy's coughing stops soon and at least has one less thing to bother him. Hopefully Muddy's vet will find a treatment that works for him. Thank you for posting an update.

I bought the Benylin DM cough syrup for Muddy and gave him some yesterday but it was awful. I'm supposed to give him 50-60mg every 8 hours. There is 15mg in 5 ml's of syrup. If I were to give him 60mg, I'd have to give him 20 mls every 8 hours! The bottle is only 100 mls and he hated it when I was squirting it in his mouth. We both ended up a sticky mess.
So I asked my vet today if there was a pill version I could give him. She told me the torbutrol (spelling??) was available but was so expensive for a larger dog. She suggested I call the pharmacist and see if it came in a pill. And to my great happiness, Robitussin has just come out with a brand new gel cap that has nothing in it but DM. I gave him his pills earlier and he seems alot better. The goal is to get him to stop coughing and then the cycle should stop because his coughing due to the inflammation was causing more inflammation.

Cinder and Smoke wrote:

Familiar with "Degenerative Myelopathy" ?
Sadly, I'm all too familiar.

My 'adopted FurKid', Bowser (now at the Rainbow Bridge ) must have
had enough German Shepherd mixed in with his Corgi/Husky mix that he
developed the condition of Degenerative Myelopathy about a year before
he passed away from what we believe were 'natural causes', aka Old Age.

Your furkid, Bowser sounds like he was one special guy! That is quite the mix, Corgi, Husky and German Shepherd. The Corgi must have had to use a ladder! We had a Pembroke Corgi growing up and got him from the Humane Society. Had him for 15 years, great dog.

Lazy Foot is more often described as "Toe Dragging" --- as the dog steps
forward, he's unable to 'pull up the toes' before swinging his leg forward;
the top or front of the toes actually drag on the ground.
As the disease advances, the dog compensates by "throwing" the foot
forward on each step; although the toes may still drag.

The 'quick test' most Vets do is to stand the dog on all fours and then
gently fold the suspected lazy paw back and under, so the dog is now
standing on the "knuckles" of that paw.
A DM dog won't notice or feel the paw is out of position and will calmly
stand on the folded back paw.
A dog NOT suffering from DM will either resist the turning under of the
paw or IMMEDIATELY pick it up an 'flip' the paw into it's proper position
as soon as the paw is released.

Thank you for this information. This test was not done on Muddy at the vet clinic. I tried it this evening and he 'righted' his lazy foot each time but there did seem to be a bit of a delay. But I was hopeful because he did fix it himself. I was surprised though when I turned his left front paw under and he stood there on his knuckles for a few seconds. He then fixed it.

he acted embarrassed at first; till I started telling him we were just puttin on his "Jammies" for bedtime!

This might be one of the sweetest things I've ever read! LES.

Our next step was going to be to order his Doggy Wheels ...but he decided it might be easier to just "retire" up at The Bridge.

I do hope that we will have enough time to help Muddy and if he needs wheels, we'll get 'em some. Thank you for posting in this thread.

Lizbud wrote:

My Buddy had this condition near the end days before he went down with all four legs. I didn't really notice his walk that much, but the Vet spotted the "toe drag" and pointed it out on a visit.
I hope Muddy has more good days than bad and is happy & comfortable.

I'm sorry to hear about Buddy. That was Muddy's real name with his first family for 5 years. We changed it to Muddy because we wanted to keep it similar to what he was used to and... he is a real hole digger so it suits him well. Thanks.

[Cinder & Smoke]

"The 'quick test' most Vets do is to stand the dog on all fours and then
gently fold the suspected lazy paw back and under, so the dog is now
standing on the "knuckles" of that paw.
A DM dog won't notice or feel the paw is out of position and will calmly
stand on the folded back paw.
A dog NOT suffering from DM will either resist the turning under of the
paw or IMMEDIATELY pick it up an 'flip' the paw into it's proper position
as soon as the paw is released."

This test was not done on Muddy at the vet clinic.
I tried it this evening and he 'righted' his lazy foot each time
but there did seem to be a bit of a delay.
But I was hopeful because he did fix it himself.
I was surprised though when I turned his left front paw under and he stood there on his knuckles for a few seconds. He then fixed it.

Bowser had just begun to 'show signs' of DM when Doc Mike gave him the
first of many 'fold-the-paw-under' tests ... at first he reacted with a
'slightly delayed' return of the paw to it's proper position. But the time
required for him to 'notice' it was turned under and act to correct it's
placement kept increasing as the weeks wore on. I'd test him at home
every few days - and noted his response time was always increasing.

Another sign I couldn't ignore was that the toenails on the Bum Paw were
being worn down to nubbins from dragging on the pavement. Dear Glacier
sent Bowz a package of Sled Dog Booties from Kan-a-Da ... Bowz only
wore ONE at a time, on the left-rear paw, during our hikes in the BigLake Parks.
The Bootie greatly reduced the wear on the top of his paw and
allowed his nails to grow back out. He was "supposed to" walk only in the
grass beside the road - but he liked to 'follow Dad' so closely he'd be
bumping into the back of my heels. I learned to listen to the rhythmic
"swish" of his bootie on the road - then reach out with the leash to steer
him back onto the grass. If I heard the "scrape" sound of his nails -
Time to backtrack and find where his boot had pulled off.

I have to give Bowz a LOT of credit - he NEVER gave up! We struggled
*together* with his DM ... we slowed down a bit, and ended a few walks
before Cinder & Smokey were ready to call it quits, but ole Bowz hung in
there with the BigKids till he 'retired' to the Bridge.
He never really let the DM get the best of him.

Here's the PT thread that started in November of 2006 >>>
Bowser needs Prayers ... Old Age is catching up ...
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=116267

The Prayer Pups will keep Muddy in their prayers!

/s/ Phred (aka New Dad)