While Doing Your Taxes This year

[Pam]

Just had my taxes done on Saturday so this caught my eye. Liz, this is sobering. Those numbers whiz by and sort of remind me of the way the numbers whiz by at the gas tank when I ask to *fill it up.* It's all just too depressing.

[Puckstop31]

I want the war to end just as much as anybody else. But, because of the nature of this enemy we must end it by winning. Short of that, we must at least ensure Iraq can sustain itself, else all of this money and lives spent will really be for nothing. Unless Iraq can sustain itself it will just be gobbled up by Iran... THEN what? You think oil is expensive now???

We could all argue until we are blue in the face about WHY we are there. Some say it is ALL based in lies. I disagee with that, but it guess it does not matter anymore. What matters now is that we are there. We have invested money and we have invested American lives. Does that not make it worth winning? Are we as a people really that weak willed?

Finally, this country was earned by people who belived freedom is worth dying for. If people are not free, they are not truly alive. To me, freedom will ALWAYS be worth a fight. Anybodies freedom, as it is the one true hope for THIS world.

[wombat2u2004]

I want the war to end just as much as anybody else. But, because of the nature of this enemy we must end it by winning. Short of that, we must at least ensure Iraq can sustain itself, else all of this money and lives spent will really be for nothing. Unless Iraq can sustain itself it will just be gobbled up by Iran... THEN what? You think oil is expensive now???

We could all argue until we are blue in the face about WHY we are there. Some say it is ALL based in lies. I disagee with that, but it guess it does not matter anymore. What matters now is that we are there. We have invested money and we have invested American lives. Does that not make it worth winning? Are we as a people really that weak willed?

Finally, this country was earned by people who belived freedom is worth dying for. If people are not free, they are not truly alive. To me, freedom will ALWAYS be worth a fight. Anybodies freedom, as it is the one true hope for THIS world.

Yup !!!!!
Wom

[moosmom]

ES,

Boy did you hit the nail on the head!! I am totally fed up with Bush and can't wait till the day when he's out. Everytime I turn on the tv, there he is, making up yet ANOTHER lame excuse why we're still fighting a war that we have no business fighting. We were there to show the Iraqis HOW to fight their battles, not to fight it FOR them. It's not our fault these idiots just don't get it.

[Puckstop31]

ES,

Boy did you hit the nail on the head!! I am totally fed up with Bush and can't wait till the day when he's out. Everytime I turn on the tv, there he is, making up yet ANOTHER lame excuse why we're still fighting a war that we have no business fighting. We were there to show the Iraqis HOW to fight their battles, not to fight it FOR them. It's not our fault these idiots just don't get it.

Do you think any other politician is going to do anything different that will make a difference? I am not defending Bush as he has handled this very poorly.

But more importantly, who are "these idiots" (I thought name calling was taboo here?) and what do they not get?

[Pembroke_Corgi]

It is so disheartening to think our society will spend so much on death and destruction. And it's completely disgusting to think that the only keeping us continually over there is the arrogance of Mr. Bush...he NEVER admit he's wrong, and pulling out now would be admitting defeat to him. How can we ever "win?" All we can ever do is lose more and more lives.

[Puckstop31]

It is so disheartening to think our society will spend so much on death and destruction.

Freedom never has been and never will be free. Yes it is horrible but it is true. What is your freedom worth to you? Better yet, what are you willing to spend to ensure others might be free so as to enjoy what we have?

How can we ever "win?" All we can ever do is lose more and more lives.

We can win. The objective of war is not to simply kill people and destroy stuff. The objective of war is to destroy the enemies will to fight. Conducting this conflict the way we do now, we certainly do have zero chance of success. But we could certainly win.

You all say if we support the troops, bring them home. How is that supporting them? If they come home without victory, then all they have sacrificed will be for naught. Speaking as a soldier, that is worse than death. If we as a people really supported them, we would want them to WIN, NOW.

I say this all the time... To those of you who hate The President, look at what is going on in the world outside that prisim of hate. What do you see? Look at it in a context of history.

[lizbud]

It is so disheartening to think our society will spend so much on death and destruction. And it's completely disgusting to think that the only keeping us continually over there is the arrogance of Mr. Bush...he NEVER admit he's wrong, and pulling out now would be admitting defeat to him. How can we ever "win?" All we can ever do is lose more and more lives.

You are so right. All we can hope for is a graceful exit with the least
amount of casualties. The sooner the better.

[Grace]

I want the war to end just as much as anybody else. But, because of the nature of this enemy we must end it by winning.

And just who do you picture as surrendering - Sunnis, Shiites, Bin Laden?

Pembroke Corgi is correct. You cannot win a war against terrorists. Terror is a tactic, not a country, a city, a province.

[Puckstop31]

This enemy is not so much a person or group of people as it is an idea. There is only one thing this enemy, whom I happen to believe is a minority of people who practice Islam, understands and that is strength. You beat them by not quitting and showing them that we will do whatever it takes. See, they understand that we as a people are not willing to endure hardships to protect our way of life, at least not all of us.

This enemy will never "surrender". But if we are willing to be strong enough, they will understand that we cannot and WILL not be messed with.

It is sad though that we are our own worst enemy.

[Edwina's Secretary]

"Those who forget history are forced to repeat it."

Over 50,000 dead. Vietnam. We had to stay or communism would be on our shores. The domino theory. Communism taking over the world.

Finally...we cut and ran.

Communism did not spread. In fact, it died a natural death in some places. China is now a HUGE trading partner for us....a country to which we export jobs....and oh yeah...I can get really cheap manicures.

To continue fighting out of hubris....an inability to admit error....a war where neither the enemy nor victory can be defined...is just so sad....

[Grace]

"Declare victory and get out."

George Aiken, R-Vermont
Advice given to Presidents Johnson and Nixon during the Vietnam conflict.

Valid and applicable today.

[Puckstop31]

"Those who forget history are forced to repeat it."

Over 50,000 dead. Vietnam. We had to stay or communism would be on our shores. The domino theory. Communism taking over the world.

Finally...we cut and ran.

Communism did not spread. In fact, it died a natural death in some places. China is now a HUGE trading partner for us....a country to which we export jobs....and oh yeah...I can get really cheap manicures.

To continue fighting out of hubris....an inability to admit error....a war where neither the enemy nor victory can be defined...is just so sad....

There is one major difference between then and now. Communists are motivated by a political aspiration. Terrorists are motivated by a deep religious faith. HUGE. Do you go to church ES? What would you do in the defence of your faith? Now, compare that to what you would do in the defence of your politics.

The world did not destroy itself during the Cold War because of the idea of mutually assured destruction. This current enemy has no such fear. If it were not for the fact I have looked this enemy in the eye and listened to them speak, I would probably be on your side here ES.

[Lady's Human]

I really and truly hate to get into this discussion for a number of reasons, but I must.

The Soviet Union replaced religion with politics. Communism WAS the religion of the official Soviet machine.

It is highly debatable whether MAD worked or not. There were many other factors involved in the relationship between the USSR and the US, MAD was just one of them. Many doctrinal publications released since the end of the Cold War show that there was much discussion inside the USSR about whether or not a nuclear war was winnable, and they had wargamed many scenarios that showed the general staff that MILITARILY a nuclear exchange was a possible win for the Soviet Union.

My point is basically that you cannot make simplistic statements about a situation with many, many variables and have them be accurate in any way, shape or form.

[Puckstop31]

Pembroke Corgi is correct. You cannot win a war against terrorists. Terror is a tactic, not a country, a city, a province.

You are thinking in conventional terms. This is most certainly a unconventional conflict. Still, just as von Clausewitz said, you win wars by destroying an enemies WILL TO FIGHT. So far, the terrorists are winning. Listening to yourselves should be the only proof you need of that.