Prong collars or chokers?

[animal_rescue]

I chose the prong collar, I like them so much better than the choke. I even tried the prong collar on myself and it's not bad.

[DogLover9501]

I don't really like either.

There was an obedience class that I was going to take Jasper to, and it was a rule that they had to wear chokers. So I took him to a clicker training class instead.

I would never use either unless *every* other method/option didn't work-even with help of professionals. However, I'm not sure if I would even use one then.

I prefer to use positive reinforcement, and Jasper learns very fast when I'm telling him what he's doing right(and not wrong)

[aly]

Originally posted by DogLover9501


I prefer to use positive reinforcement, and Jasper learns very fast when I'm telling him what he's doing right(and not wrong)

That is such an important point that I like to emphasize in the obedience classes I teach. So many trainers concentrate on "No no no" always telling the dog what they are NOT supposed to do. When we let the dog know what they ARE supposed to do, then training is so much easier and you don't have to sit there yelling at your dog. I never yell at dogs, stay positive, show and reward desired behaviors, and have amazing results.

[slleipnir]

My trainer said he has worked with both methods. All positive, and the other way. I guess he prefers the other method - not the all positive. He likes to try things out for himself before judging if they're good or not (I'm not saying anyone here does/doesn't)

Anyway. He tells me to always be positive as well. For example...you're heeling, the dog does something it shouldn't (it knows it shouldn't) ..say "Nooo!" and give a quick pop. Tell it to heel again, and reenforce the command "heel" and praise. The next time, if it does it right, make a huge deal of it.

I've used just about everything for my dogs. I couldn't say one is better, but I know what works for me. They choke on a flat collar, they choke on a choker, and they don't learn on a gentle leader. I have seen a huge difference with Josie (who is dog aggressive) since starting to train her with this.

Aly, maybe could you tell me in a PM why you don't like them? I'd like to see difference points of view so I can research it. Thanks

[Suki Wingy]

Choke chains are evil, Niñoi just about choked himself with one, our vet and instructor from Layla's obediance class both said never use a slip/choke chain. I would ONLY use it for conformation. Niño loves his prong/ping collar and actually willingly puts it on. He can slip out of anything else except for choke chains and martingales. I don't think he really enjoys the feeling of it being all around his neck because he pulls a lot and very strong. This is a very touchy issue and I stand strongly behind my choise.
edit: We have tryed:
Choke, prong, halti, sporn halter, martingale, regular collar, and a harness. Guess what only really worked? you guessed it, the PRONG!

[Dixieland Dancer]

This is a passion of mine. I have been training and showing dogs in obedience for over 25 years and have evolved from the Koehler method (pop and choke corrections) to clicker training now and everything inbetween over the years. I have titled many dogs in obedience competitions with advanced titles. I currently teach dog obedience with classes from puppy kindergarten to advanced obedience. I am only bringing this up because I want you to realize I am speaking from experience and not just from opinion.

I only use positive training methods, specifically clicker training now. The ability of our dogs to learn when they are shown the correct way to do something is amazing! Instead of being punished for the wrong thing and then left to figure out how they can avoid that from happening again in the future is just ridiculous.

I have seen dogs so afraid of their owners because they are constantly given negative corrections such as a choke or a tug on either a choke chain or pinch collar. I'm not saying that is any of you. I'm just saying that there are better ways of training a dog than using negative training methods. I realize there are trainers with a lot of experience still teaching this stuff but it really makes me sad because there are better ways available.

I would venture to bet that I can teach a dog something and know the dog knows what it is being asked to do, in less time than anybody else can using choke chains and pinch collars. Actually, I've taken dogs that have been trained with negative methods and have amazed the owners that their dog could learn something they had given up all hope on so it really wouldn't be a fair bet. I'm not saying this to brag. I am only saying it to get people to realize that our dogs want to please us and want to learn what we are willing to teach them but they have to be taught in a positive light.

There was a saying that my grandmother use to say to me after I had my son. It was "A child learns what he lives." If a child is taught fear then it will be fearful... etc. It's the same for our dogs. They learn what they live. For their sake, I have thrown out all choke chains and any other negative training device and have just taught them to listen for a click or a "yes" verbal so they will KNOW when they do something right! That makes them want to do it again and again so they can make me happy!

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

I like prong collars if they're used properly. I'v tried it on myself a couple times to see if they hurt and they don't, they sjut give a slight pinch and that's all.

[slleipnir]

Is the way I mentioned negative? I'm still confused on this lol. I don't want to be mean to my dogs, I just want them to listen to me no matter what. I have tried a lot of things too. ( I'm not expert, so I can't really say anything for sure)

I know this guy has taken dogs who spent a life either being neglected, left outside all the time...whatever, the dogs I guess get really nasty and need to be put to sleep. He is able to train them into being very nice and friendly dogs. He shows them to me, and you can tell when a dog is really happy - his are. He told me about of his rotties who he couldn't even pat at first without her trying to bite him...maybe the method isn't the best? I don't know, but I do know it helps a lot of dogs. I also know he has trained dogs for many years, has studied behavior and many things.

actually, I found a website seeing I don't really know anything hahah XD
http://www.kck9.ca/content/about_us.php

Is there such a thing as half and half? Like some negative, but also positive? I really want whats best for my dogs, and of course, I'm still learning. I'm not sure who I should look at when training seeing everyone has their own methods...

[aly]

Darn, I tried to search for that other thread so I could copy and paste some of my training comments, but it looks like someone deleted it. I wrote out a lot of long posts on there, so I'm kind of disappointed. A lot of what I said is along the lines of what Candy was saying. I can retype everything, I just don't have the time right this minute.

I think a lot of trainers (especially older ones) use intimidation tactics. They do get results, but positive reinforcement gets results as well (along with strengthening the bond and keeping the dog's mental health in tact). The positive reinforcement exercises I teach do take a little longer for leash walking for some dogs. I think a lot of people turn to chokes/prongs because they don't have the time or patience for anything else. That was not directed at anyone here, but it is often the case of people in my classes.

I personally would steer clear of any "trainer" that FORCES her methods onto me. That is just narrow-minded. People who are willing to change their mind as studies are done, and admit when they are wrong are much better suited to train dogs. Every dog is different and methods do need to be constantly adapted to each individual.

I know you'll do whats best for your dogs, Audrey. You need to do what you feel comfortable with and what you feel is safe and right for your babies. I am against certain methods, but I hope you don't take it as a personal attack or anything. I'd trust you with any of my own dogs Oh yeah, and I will write out what I wrote in the other thread again soon.. hopefully later this afternoon/evening.

[Jadapit]

I remember that thread Aly. You sure got me thinking. Everything you had to say made a lot of sence.

[sammy101]

Both are very affective if used properly.Kodies obediance class,they had to wear a 'training collar(i dont call it a choker,sounds too harsh)I find them both affective,but i prefer a Prong,Kodie wears one everytime he goes out for a walk or to Petsmart.IMO Prongs are better for larger dogs.I'm not against these collars,as long as you use them properly.

[Thandi]

My trainers only used positive reinforcement and real gentle approach, no chokers, etc. But still Mika goes beserk when she sees another dog while on a leash, and no talking, distractions, food, anything, will change that. We've really been working on it a hell of a lot. They suggested the halti, but that irritates the hell out of her and she's absolutely miserable the entire walk, even tho I keep it loose and only hold on to it when we see another dog.

My dogs in SA were trained the Woodhouse way--shout, demand, choke chains. What I'm doing with these people is so radically different. I guess the first 4 years of Mika's abusive and neglected life are going to take a lot of undoing.

[cubby31682]

We now use a check chain. It has a chain peice in it but you only want to use it for the noise ONLY! You have to be able to get atleast 2 finger in the collar when pulled tight. That is what we use. I tested it on myself a few times. The collar is not ment to be a choker or a pinch collar in any way. It is not used in anyway that is harmful as well.

[slleipnir]

Well...

The choker the lady gave to me for Zeke seems pretty small. I can almost NOT get it off his head when I take it off..I have to pull it over one ear, then the other, and Zeke doesn't like it...I asked her about it and she said it HAS to be small or it doesn't correct right.

I was gonna see about doing therapy work with Zeke (through her) but I honestly don't care for her ways at all. I guess I'll have to find someone else.

Also on this topic...

I remember my old dog, Rufus. I only remember SOME things as I was pretty young when we had him. I rememeber a little of his younger years, and he would always pull VERY hard on the leash and also choke. (we used a flat collar) I didn't know of other things at the time. He would always pull on his chain outside too (before we got a fence) andI remember taking him to the vet, and she could just touch his throat and he'd gag.

That's another reason I think the prongs are nice. They don't pull, they don't strangle, and they don't get hurt like Rufus did...

I'd love to know more about positive only training. I've never really seen anything of it, so I wouldn't know how it works..

I do know that I want my dogs trained to listen to me NO MATTER WHAT. I expect them to come when I call, even if there is a dog. (Duno how to do that!!!) Maybe I am impatient, and as you said Aly, perhaps I am being lazy with it (I know you didn't point that at me, btw )

If they ever got out and went running to the steet, I want them to listen to me NOW..not eventually when the training works...I'm sure there are better ways, but I can't say that any one is the best. It depends on the person and the dog maybe??

Anyway, this is a really interesting thread to read others opinions.

[slleipnir]

Oh yeah, do you guys think I could show up next week with a prong collar for Zeke? I KNOW she'll confront me..and I'm not very good with people doing that to me But, I REALLY don't like how I can't do what I want for my dog...I was thinking if she told me to leave or something I'd tell her if she gives me my money back, I'd be happy to. I don't really want to be rude though..