Fahrenheit 911 - For those who've seen it

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary

So not speaking against Hitler or the Nazi government would have been patriotic?

And take the chance of getting killed???

[jonza]

Sorry if we're sidetracking your thread Soledad, but I happened to get this from a friend yesterday, and it's pretty relevant as far as I can see.

“Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

Samuel Johnson, a British writer (1709-1784), once called patriotism "the last refuge of a scoundrel", but Julius Caesar, the Great Roman Emperor (102 B.C. - 44 B.C.) had a more illuminating insight into the phenomenon of patriotism:

"Beware the leader who beats the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is a double-edged sword. It emboldens the blood and narrows the mind.

And when the drums of war have reached fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need to seize the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

He certainly knew what he was talking about, and he was frank about it.
His life is also an important lesson to Mankind, and to modern would be emperors, that empires do not last forever.



I think this lesson should be taught to Presidents and Prime Ministers too!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza






And I am Caesar."

But you have to admit, the dude made a ROCKING salad.

[Lady's Human]

Actually, Caesar never uttered those words.

[jonza]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
Actually, Caesar never uttered those words.

Does that make them less relevant?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Actually, Caesar never uttered those words

Although I am old....I wasn't actually around when Caesar was so I am unable to say whether he actually uttered those words or not. And actually...he probably would have spoken in Latin...of which I only know a little bit.

[Lady's Human]

The attachment of Caesar's name to the quote gives it weight which it would not otherwise have. Caesar's writings have survived well through the years, and his actual speeches are fairly well documented by Roman Historians. Without the attachment of "How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar. " would instantly give the quote credence with someone who was familiar with Caesar but not familiar with his writing.

[jonza]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
The attachment of Caesar's name to the quote gives it weight which it would not otherwise have. Caesar's writings have survived well through the years, and his actual speeches are fairly well documented by Roman Historians. Without the attachment of "How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar. " would instantly give the quote credence with someone who was familiar with Caesar but not familiar with his writing.

So I ask again - Does that make the quote less relevant?

[RICHARD]

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm

http://www.brandonblog.homestead.com...-you-done.html

[Albea]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
Actually, Caesar never uttered those words.

Whether it was Julius Caesar or any other Caesar (powerful ruler or autocrat,) from the Romans to the 21st century, those words could have been said by any demagogue who was articulate enough to say them in a fleeting moment of honesty. There are enough examples in history of people being worked up to a frenzy of patriotism in order to distract them from the failures of the rulers.

[Lady's Human]

Without the addition of Gaius Julius's name, no one would even read it.

[RICHARD]

Re-reading that JC quote made me laugh.

HAD he said that, it's no wonder he got the shank from his fellow Romans.

I mean IF you have the formula to whip the multitudes into a frenzy by blinding them with rhetoric and warmongering, why admit to it???

HEY EVERYONE!!
I got you all to go to war for me. MORONS!

What a pompous and arrogant statement.

Our "war" wasn't started by us, Of course, we did happen to build some huge buildings that might have ticked some people off..

Skyscraper or hole in the ground in Afghanistan??

I have to think about it.

The long term effects of the war we took to Afghanistan and Iraq look to be beneficial in the long run. It's bad enough to fly in an plane worrying about the maintenance schedules to the fuselage and engines. I sure as hell don't want to worry about some moron with a fuse in his tennis shoe or some religious zealot yelling ALLAH AKBAR
as he noses over my vacation, my luggage and my unsuspecting rear end into some building that represents modern progress.

Patriotism?
Infantile disease?? I had my booster shots...

It's quite easy to blame ONE person when something
goes wrong-we seem to forget that Saddam had everyone fooled.....

The biggest chuckle I get is from people who call the 'war' illegal and immoral, but refuse to see what Saddam and Osama were doing before the other shoe dropped. Yep, we sat on our hands while this was going on before...but when the US, the Brits, the Aussies and ANYONE else who had the bits to join us made the move, we all were just as bad as Saddam or Osama.

When Hector Hamas or Jerry Jihad ever visit your town or city you'll hope your elected officials take a few minutes to climb out of their bomb shelters to rally the survivors with a couple of thumps on the drum....

George Bush probably wouldn't be my first choice at driving the bus to go to war....


But I'm glad there was someone with the keys, and the cojones to do SOMETHING about it

[Edwina's Secretary]

the war we took to Afghanistan and Iraq

What a creative way to describe it! Invade a country and call it "taking the war to...."

The world is not black and white...good guys vs bad guys. We support Saddam when it served our purposes, we supported Al Queda when it supported our purpose. And we continue to support Saudi Arabia -- land that spawned Osama bin Ladin and won't let me drive a car in their country!

And I have NEVER understood why anyone thinks it takes guts (cojones if you prefer) to send someone elses' sons and daughters to die in a foreign country.

The soldiers are brave, they have cojones. How many off-spring of congresspersons/presidents/vice-presidents/cabinet members are serving?????*


*one

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
land that spawned Osama bin Ladin and won't let me drive a car in their country!


The soldiers are brave, they have cojones. How many off-spring of congresspersons/presidents/vice-presidents/cabinet members are serving?????*


*one

I don't blame Saudi Arabia for not letting you drive your car there....It probably needs a wash.

Not that I am volunteering or anything.

I made a bet with a gal to wash her car if I was wrong about another bet. She has yet to get back to me about it.

I 'bet' Scarlett O'Hara would concede the wager.




-----------------------------------------------

Congressional Children in War
Deceits 53-56

Early in this segment, Moore states that "out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq." The action of the segment consists of Moore
accosting Congressmen to try to convince them to have their children enlist in the military. At the end, Moore declares, “Not a single member of Congress wanted to
sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

Moore’s second statement is technically true, but duplicitous. Of course no-one would want to “sacrifice” his child in any way. But the fact is, Moore's opening
("only one") and his conclusion ("not a single member") are both incorrect. Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson,
serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11,
and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. Delaware Senator Joseph Biden's son Beau is on
active duty in the Judge Advocate General Corps; although Beau Biden has no control over where he is deployed, he has not been sent to Iraq, and therefore does
not "count" for Moore's purposes. Seven members of Congress have been confirmed to have children in the military.

How about Cabinet members? Fahrenheit never raises the issue, because the answer would not fit Moore’s thesis. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s son is serving
on the U.S.S. McFaul in the Persian Gulf.

Why not count Duncan Hunter's son? Note the phrasing: "only one had an enlisted son in Iraq." Although Hunter's son "enlisted" in the Marines, he is a Second
Lieutenant, which means that he is above the rank of an "enlisted man." But why hide from the viewers how many Congressmen really have sons serving in the
military in Iraq?

The editing of the Congressional scenes borders on the fraudulent:

….Representative Kennedy (R-MN), one of the lawmakers accosted in Fahrenheit 9/11, was censored by Michael Moore.
According to the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had
a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his
nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy’s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered
and defensive.
What was Michael’s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy’s remarks didn’t help his thesis: “He mentioned that he had a nephew that was
going over to Afghanistan,” Moore recounted. “So then I said ‘No, no, that’s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a
nephew.’”
Kennedy lambasted Moore as a “master of the misleading” after viewing the interview in question.

-----------------------------------------

Most Senators and Congressfolks are past the 'child bearing' years....It reminds me of my job, I have worked with some doctor's kids....while most were pleasant, I met a few that made me wish for a screaming hemorrhoid rather than spending 10 more minutes in their presence. Why would a politico's kid be any different????

I'm sure the Services wouldn't mind a few Kerrys or Bushes to carry the sword.


Did I say guts???? You are six inches too far nortH

[RICHARD]

FOR THE RECORD..

Invasion- an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for
conquest or plunder.


Or in MY dictionary.

Invasion-Having to submit to the once-a-year prostate check the Haitian nurse practitioner gives me. You know, the one with the fat fingers.