Sex abuse in church

[wombat2u2004]

I can see Im banging my head against a wall here. The Church has made great leaps in the past decades under great scrutiny from the public, some chose to not see the changes. So be it.

If you don't see the corruption that is involved in the Catholic church, then so be it also.

[/QUOTE]The Muslims are our brothers and sisters, their problems are ours.[/QUOTE]
I'm not taking the bait here Blue....if you wish to discuss racial issues, then I will fairly meet you squarly in any forum you wish, except this one.
We are discussing child sexual abuse within the Catholic Church here.

[kokopup]

Blue, I don't know where you get your facts about how they have cleaned up their act over the last decade. The problem is actually worst now than at any time in history. It has gotten to the point that homosexuality has risen in all parts of the Catholic world that it is finally coming to light world wide. When priest come up with Aids (yes I can show proof ) then the problem is rampant within their ranks. It has been said in this thread that homosexuals prefer adults not children. The facts are pediphilia of boys is a Homosexual act pure and simple.

http://www.answering-christianity.co..._with_aids.htm

[Miss Z]

That's exactly right.
Just like you inbred rednecks who are the butt of our jokes.

Its like the Ausies are the most watched when it comes to the loving of sheep.

Oh dear!

It still astounds me how we have to hate on each other's countries so much on this forum.

Now, before I get back to my afternoon tea and biscuits and croquet...

Blue, I did find myself agreeing with the issue you raised about anti-Catholicism. I was quite surprised, when following this thread, about some of the choice words against them. My country has quite a history of falling out with Catholics , but I've yet to experience the same level of venom I've sensed here with the religious folk I know personally.

I think there is corruption in most religious sects, and as usual they ruin it for all the decent people.

It is fair to say, though, that everyone in this thread is agreed that these priests cannot, and should not be able to, hide behind the shroud of their faith and should be tried and punished as anyone else would. That is the real cause for outcry in this issue, not the Catholic way of living.

I think I may have posted a thread about it a long while ago; there was a vicar in my area who was convicted for downloading indecent images of kids. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. I don't remember exactly what type of Church he belonged to, but it was certainly not a Catholic one.

Back to the marriage issue - he had it all. Wife, kids, nice house, lots of friends. One day, his son discovers the images. Frustrated, or just wrongly wired in the head?

These people turn up in all walks of life, just when it occurs in a religious group, where we expect everyone to be perfect, it feels all the more damning.

This thread should not be used as a chance for a pop at the Catholics.

[Marigold2]

Wom, you words are so eloquently put and so spot on. I could not agree with you more.

A few things I would like to add. It should not matter if these crimes were commited last week or in the last 30 years, children suffered, lives were runined. Their suffering was not less 30 years ago, in fact it was probably greater since people did not speak up as much as they do today. These people Blue are still in great, great pain.

If one judges a persons behavior by past actions then one must take into account tha fact that if it was sweep under the rug and they were not punished in the past, the behavior has continued and perhaps become more brazen.

I have nothing against the church. My nephew Michael is considering priesthood. However I fear for him. Will he be abused by those higher up as has been mentioned on this thread?


LONDON – Protests are growing against Pope Benedict XVI's planned trip to Britain, where some lawyers question whether the Vatican's implicit statehood status should shield the pope from prosecution over sex crimes by pedophile priests.
More than 10,000 people have signed a petition on Downing Street's web site against the pope's 4-day visit to England and Scotland in September, which will cost U.K. taxpayers an estimated 15 million pounds ($22.5 million). The campaign has gained momentum as more Catholic sex abuse scandals have swept across Europe.
Although Benedict has not been accused of any crime, senior British lawyers are now examining whether the pope should have immunity as a head of state and whether he could be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction for an alleged systematic cover-up of sexual abuses by priests.
Universal jurisdiction — a concept in international law — allows judges to issue warrants for nearly any visitor accused of grievous crimes, no matter where they live. British judges have been more open to the concept than those in other countries.
Lawyers are divided over the immunity issue. Some argue that the Vatican isn't a true state, while others note the Vatican has national relations with about 170 countries, including Britain. The Vatican is also the only non-member to have permanent observer status at the U.N.
Then again, no other top religious leaders enjoy the same U.N. privileges or immunity, so why should the pope?
David Crane, former chief prosecutor at the Sierra Leone war crimes tribunal, said it would be difficult to implicate the pope in anything criminal.
"It's a fascinating kind of academic, theoretical discussion," said Crane, who prosecuted Sierra Leone's Charles Taylor when he was still a sitting head of state. "At this point, there's no liability at all."

This article continues, it's under Yahoo's home page.
So you see others too question weather the pope should be in jail.

If one commits a crime it cannot matter who one is.
The law applies to all weather you are a Catholic, a Buddist or a Lutheran. Wrong is wrong.

As a Catholic Blue I wonder why you would not want to take an active part in cleaning this mess up as much as one can and helping rid the church of sex abuse. Don't you want to make the Catholic church better?

[wombat2u2004]

As a Catholic Blue I wonder why you would not want to take an active part in cleaning this mess up as much as one can and helping rid the church of sex abuse. Don't you want to make the Catholic church better?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Hmmmm....maybe from a Catholics point of view, it's acceptable behaviour.

[kokopup]

I guess we need to restate the point of the thread. We all acknowledge that Pedophilia/homosexuality/illicit heterosexual behavior exist in all segments of the world, even all religions. The problem at least from a Pedophilia and homosexuality standpoint is when a crime is committed against children and the guilty goes unpunished. If a Baptist Paster committed an offense against a child, not only would he/she lose their church but they would go to jail. In addition once he/she was released from jail they would have to register as a sex offender. There is no one in our church hierarchy that would sweep it under the rug. I personally have not heard of a minister having relations with a child but I have seen several caught having affairs with either coworkers or members of the church. The one case I can speak first hand about , the minister had heterosexual relations with a coworker, and he was forced to retire. The church I went to had a church worker found accessing gay porn on his computer and he was immediately dismissed. Since neither of these cases were committed against a child there were no civil laws violated. In both cases though there were consequences for their actions.

[wombat2u2004]

I guess we need to restate the point of the thread. We all acknowledge that Pedophilia/homosexuality/illicit heterosexual behavior exist in all segments of the world, even all religions. The problem at least from a Pedophilia and homosexuality standpoint is when a crime is committed against children and the guilty goes unpunished. If a Baptist Paster committed an offense against a child, not only would he/she lose their church but they would go to jail. In addition once he/she was released from jail they would have to register as a sex offender. There is no one in our church hierarchy that would sweep it under the rug. I personally have not heard of a minister having relations with a child but I have seen several caught having affairs with either coworkers or members of the church. The one case I can speak first hand about , the minister had heterosexual relations with a coworker, and he was forced to retire. The church I went to had a church worker found accessing gay porn on his computer and he was immediately dismissed. Since neither of these cases were committed against a child there were no civil laws violated. In both cases though there were consequences for their actions.

Agreed Bill.
Who in their right mind would want a child molester to go unpunished ???
Someone who believes it's not a crime on one hand, but on the other represents the Kingdom of Heaven ????
Sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me.
Is not the person who hides the criminal as guilty as the criminal ????
Let's forget about power and position, and make these people be subjected to the laws of the land.
After all.....wasn't Nixon and Clinton held accountable for their crimes ???
(And their crimes were miniscule compared to child sexual abuse).

[Alysser]

Oh dear!

It still astounds me how we have to hate on each other's countries so much on this forum.

Now, before I get back to my afternoon tea and biscuits and croquet...

Blue, I did find myself agreeing with the issue you raised about anti-Catholicism. I was quite surprised, when following this thread, about some of the choice words against them. My country has quite a history of falling out with Catholics , but I've yet to experience the same level of venom I've sensed here with the religious folk I know personally.

I think there is corruption in most religious sects, and as usual they ruin it for all the decent people.

It is fair to say, though, that everyone in this thread is agreed that these priests cannot, and should not be able to, hide behind the shroud of their faith and should be tried and punished as anyone else would. That is the real cause for outcry in this issue, not the Catholic way of living.

I think I may have posted a thread about it a long while ago; there was a vicar in my area who was convicted for downloading indecent images of kids. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. I don't remember exactly what type of Church he belonged to, but it was certainly not a Catholic one.

Back to the marriage issue - he had it all. Wife, kids, nice house, lots of friends. One day, his son discovers the images. Frustrated, or just wrongly wired in the head?

These people turn up in all walks of life, just when it occurs in a religious group, where we expect everyone to be perfect, it feels all the more damning.

This thread should not be used as a chance for a pop at the Catholics.

Great choice of words, Zara. I agree with you completely.

[wombat2u2004]

Well golly gee !!!!
We are accused of taking a pop at the church ???
Now I've REALLY got my dander up !!!!

Bill and Blue....we should discuss this over tea and cucumber sandwiches.

[Marigold2]

Would be interesting to hear from some who have been abused. What punishment would they dole out and what would they suggest to keep futher gernerations safe from this abuse?

[wombat2u2004]

Would be interesting to hear from some who have been abused. What punishment would they dole out and what would they suggest to keep futher gernerations safe from this abuse?

Nawwwww....we can't do that.
We might be accused of attacking the church.

[Catty1]

The people who were abused as children might very well want to attack the church. Pedophiles in the church should not be immune to prosecution, as seems to have been the case - they are too well covered up.

[Miss Z]

Well golly gee !!!!
We are accused of taking a pop at the church ???
Now I've REALLY got my dander up !!!!

Bill and Blue....we should discuss this over tea and cucumber sandwiches.

Heh, well it really is all about you, isn’t it, John?

Marigold, apologies. I'm not being a particularly good friend here! Promise I’ll smirk to myself only at the beastie after this post.

Haha, you have a go at the Catholic Church all you want, my friend, for you see it singles you out for the person you are - racist, homophobic, a little sexist, and when it comes down to the boil, against anything or anyone who might call you on something.

You made a habit of picking on a young girl the first time around you were here.

You were nasty for the mere reason that she disagreed with you a few times.

You are unlike any others on the forum here, who at least have the decency to drop or at least quieten their discrepancies with each other over time. Well, try it on with me all you like, matie, I frankly do not give a toss.

I had the mis/fortune of stumbling across a few Youtube comments you made some time after your PT departure, and evidently you can’t contain your exuberance to irk people there either. Tsk tsk, you should choose a less unique username, says I.

And I have no doubt that I will be flamed for this, or that this post will be deleted, and that few will choose to publicly back me. I’ll take a defeat, or a slap, should it come, so long as others know I‘m prepared to stand in the firing line. At least I don’t depend on the ignore button to shut out the words I don’t want to hear.

And, silly man, were you not so self-righteous in that respect, you would have seen me agreeing with you in some threads, against people whom I sure as hell prefer and respect over you. I’m able to move on. Ask Blue, the pair of us have had quite the gripes! Can’t say I blame him if he’s not all that fond of me. But in this thread, he’s right, IMO, and I support his words. It’s called being respectful.

The comment I made was not particularly about your posts, since if they seem to contain too many consecutive exclamation marks and other various punctuation symbols, I don’t often read them. It was directed at the people I know can ‘hear’ me in this thread, why on earth should I address it to you?

You and I - chalk and cheese. You say I’m evil and angry, I say you’re pathetic and laughable. We ain’t never gonna be happy until one of us has gone. And I hold out that, if it’s not me that this time sends you storming off, it’ll be someone else. And if I have to be got shut of before that happens, well, that’ll be a shame for me, since I care a lot about many people here. I’ll only have my snappiness and sense of justice to blame for that, but my gawd do I hold it dear. I won’t be changing that anytime soon.

I would be grateful if someone not on the naughty list could quote me so that I can correspond with this gentleman. It is all I wish to say to him.

I’ll expect the arrival of the cavalry, that’s cool. My gripes are not with you.

[Miss Z]

Would be interesting to hear from some who have been abused. What punishment would they dole out and what would they suggest to keep futher gernerations safe from this abuse?

This would indeed be an interesting perspective. From news reports, the parents of the abused Irish children certainly have a thing or two in mind. I reckon, however, that it couldn’t be coaxed from the mouths of the victims on moral grounds by police, or media, or whoever else wants to know. Too much dredging up of awful memories. I can’t fathom what that would be like.

[pomtzu]

I was really rather enjoying PT these past few months, without all the accusations, name calling, insults, and other generally rude behavior that goes along as part of the package. I knew it was too good to last!!!

If the shoe fits...........