I think Ivy is going back to his breeder or original owner.

**jenluckenbach** · 07-12-2007, 05:48 PM

Well, if he is having symptoms with breathing etc, than this murmur is very likely causing him distress. As I said, mine do not, but I am soppose to look for things like troubled breathing.

**buttercup132** · 07-12-2007, 06:05 PM

His breeder just e mailed me back saying this

Hi Alicia,

Please do not give him back to this previous owner who obviously never cared for him and actually physically disfigured him from what you have said. You can send him back to me at anytime if you'd like. On the otherhand, like what I've said before - often all the testing in the world really does nothing for the cat. Even if something is diagnosed, not much changes for the cat's life expectancy. If he's happy and in no stages of heart failure there is no reason not to just let him live happily as a pet. He could live his life with no problems, or he could at some point advance to heart disease. Its really unknown when you have no idea what has caused the heart murmur or whether it will ever progress, etc.... But quite honestly even with all the testing in the world the outcome won't change much. So its really a question of just giving him a happy life.

But PLEASE if you do not want to keep him return him to me, not to an owner who only had him for a short time, got him no routine vet care, and gave him up already. I think you care more about him than to do that. If you want to send him back to me we'd have to have him shipped, Continental is the only airline that ships in total temperature control and this time of year that would be needed. I would have to pick him up in Minneapolis on a weekend and we'd have to work out the plan for that because I travel a lot for business so we'd have to get it scheduled in.

I will be e mailing her back telling her about his coughing and breathing and see what she says about that.
Oh and what she means by disfigured is his tail because it has so many kinks. The person I got him from said her sister ran over his tail with a chair.

**Catty1** · 07-12-2007, 06:18 PM

The person I got him from said her sister ran over his tail with a chair.

OMG.....

Poor wittle Ivy...

I am glad the breeder is being so good...are you far away from her? It's a time when a lot of people are on holidays...is she close enough for a friend to drive Ivy there?

I am glad you are asking about the breathing thing. It might not be connected, in this case, though I realize it often is. Just make sure.

I know it's summer...but do you have some Vicks and a vaporizer?

Also - I don't know what it is called, but there is a liquid that clears sinuses - maybe he's got some kind of post nasal drip. Vets have it. You can either put drops up his nose (yeah, mine too - NOT! lol) or put it on a little 'mask' and just hold it over his muzzle for 6-7 breaths.

**buttercup132** · 07-12-2007, 06:26 PM

No he would have to be shipped she's in the U.S.
I think I have Vicks but what do I do with it/what will it do?

**Catty1** · 07-12-2007, 06:31 PM

Well, it won't cure anything. But use it for Ivy as if you had a cold and were using it for yourself. Maybe your mom or dad can help.

If Ivy is ok being in the bathroom with the door closed, that is a good place to "steam" him. Or in any smaller room; if he does freak out, maybe stay with him for 1/2 hour. (you will breathe it too, but that's ok)

I am suggesting this on the basis that it won't hurt his heart murmur or anything else. Please give your one vet a call and see if this is ok to do.

**buttercup132** · 07-12-2007, 06:51 PM

She got back to me again and I'm a little confused by this e mail.
Is she making me give him back to her?
All I said was he is coughing and has problems breathing.
I was also thinking though maybe it would be good for him to go back with her because she seems to know alot about murmurs and other problems.

Well its a little more complex than that. There are probably more minimal diagnostics that could be done simply to determine if he had fluid in his lungs from heart failure if that is your concern. Things to improve quality of life, starting him on meds as you mentioned, etc... That certainly does not take $2000 of diagnostic work. Most vets go this more realistic route when dealing with a pet. You can treat the symptoms without knowing the full root cause. If you're seeing coughing from heart failure you'd be seeing it a lot and it would be exercise related - ie when he ran, played, etc... Is that what you're seeing?

But yes, please lets arrange to have you ship him back to me. I could do it next Saturday the 21st, or the following weekend on the 28th. Let me know if you want me to make the arrangements with Continental or if you want to. You'd just have to check with me first on exact dates/times. You'll need to get his health certificate within 10 days of the flight and provide his kennel and travel supplies. If you have never shipped by air before you can log onto Continental's website for full requirements and details. With Continental the weight break for charges is at 10lbs (which he'll be over) so up to 50lbs is the same price, so I'd advise getting a large enough kennel that you can put a travel litterbox in the back and a comfortable bed in the front for that long of a flight.
Ok, so just let me know what we can work out to get him back here and safe!

**jenluckenbach** · 07-12-2007, 07:00 PM

I don't believe she is FORCING you to return him, I think she is going ahead with what you said you wanted......to give him back.

I think you need to decide what to do.

The breeder is correct in saying that knowing an EXACT cause may not be needed in order to provide quality of life. YES, it is helpful to know the cause, but it may not affect the outcome.

Since you say this was your secod vet opinion, it may not help to find yet a third vet, but having a vet who can be open, honest and straight forward is an asset.

**buttercup132** · 07-12-2007, 07:05 PM

Since you say this was your secod vet opinion, it may not help to find yet a third vet, but having a vet who can be open, honest and straight forward is an asset

The second vet was. He is a friend of my boss and her mom. They have known him since before he even opened up a vet office and they helped him to get it started. I would like to think he is honest and straight forward with them. If there was any treatment that could have been done there I would have got it done for free so I think he would also like to go the easiest cheapest route.

**catmandu** · 07-12-2007, 07:29 PM

It May Be Better In The Long Run To Return Poor Ivy As You Would Always Be Worried About Him And Watching Him Constantly. I Think Shes Being A Responsible Breeder By Taking Ivy Back And You Cannot Ask For More Than That. What A Shame That Ivy Did Not Work Out.

**Catty1** · 07-12-2007, 07:40 PM

I read the breeder's first and latest email, and she seems to be saying that there is no point spending $2,000.00 on tests for Ivy. As she said, most vets would treat the symptoms rather than the root cause(which $2,000 may not tell anything about).

Is his coughing worse when he runs or plays? She asked that, because if that is when it happens, then it is likely related to the heart problem.

If he does it whether active or not, then it's something else. His sinuses could be clogged, or he might have a bronchitis or something.

I think the breeder also wants to spare you expensive tests that two vets have advised on. If his coughing appears to be from something else, and that can be treated - then you could keep him in good health.

I think the breeder just doesn't want you to be overwhelmed by keeping him, that's all.

**shais_mom** · 07-12-2007, 07:53 PM

I am very sorry to hear this and I know you will do what is best for IVY.
For what its worth - It didn't think she was forcing you to do anything- if you tell her you want to keep him for awhile - I'm sure she would be ok with that - the first email said anytime...
good luck

**buttercup132** · 07-12-2007, 08:13 PM

For now I'm just going to think about it for a couple days.
Maybe make a pro and con list for what's best for Ivy myself and Ducky.

**Sevaede** · 07-12-2007, 09:00 PM

I'm so sorry Buttercup.

I found out earlier this year that my Little Dog had a grade 3 murmur but the vet said it was nothing really to worry about. However, she did end up passing away a few months later.

She did have a coughing problem and seizure problem that the vet attributed towards the murmur. We had thought she had a collapsing trachea all along (that's one of the reasons she went to the vet and found out about that, I was getting ready for her to have surgery on the trachea)!

I'm confused about that and am curious to see what else your vet says about them!

**Freedom** · 07-12-2007, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by buttercup132

For now I'm just going to think about it for a couple days.
Maybe make a pro and con list for what's best for Ivy myself and Ducky.

Excellent! this is a very tough decision. Don't rush into it.

The breeder seems to be doing 2 things: 1. stepping up to the plate, as a good breeder should, and saying hey look, things aren't right, I take the cat back, no questions. That is highly commendable of her! 2. in the 2d message, she is saying there are other tests, not diagnostic, which are less than the $2000, and those will just help to address symptoms without finding the cause. If she gets Ivy back, it sounds like this is the route she will pursue. She says "miminal tests to determine if there is fluid in the lungs," and if there is, then the vet prescribes meds to address that. And those meds improve the quality of life.

I remember the video you posted with the sounds of Ivy breathing. In your pro and con list, you need to mark down if you keep Ivy, will you let things be with the breathing like that? Or will you have some additional vetting done to address that? And I think THAT is the minimal testing the breeder is referring to. (I hope I made that clear; I re worded it three times.)

You've got some time and still be able to arrange things for the 21st if you decide to return Ivy. Bless you, this is such a tough one!

**emilysgk** · 07-12-2007, 09:24 PM

I think the breeder sounds truly concerned for the cat and that is why she wanted him back. She wasn't, nor can she, force you to give him back. (Unless you were the original owner and it was in contract, which does not involve you) I think she is worried about his health and just wants to be sure he is ok. Its also true that other things can be done to figure out the coughing thing and wheather its related or not. As far as I know a good chest x-ray can even help in determining if he has fluid build up or an enlarged heart. Im sure you will make the best decision for you and him.