Training with Treats

[Alysser]

Okay, this has bothered me for so long and I might need help with it in the near future. After Disney World, I'm pretty positive we are adopting a dog. Okay, I've finally officially let it out. We're not limited to a certain breed or anything like that, a good old fashion mutt will be just fine for us although I think we'd prefer a dog that was NOT over 70 LBs XD and minimal shedding is preferred but not required. Anyway, I was thinking about training. Now, I've trained dogs before. I trained Sassy tricks and basic commands, WITH treats, but here's the problem. She would never listen to me unless I had a treat or gave her a treat.

Now, If I'm gonna get a puppy and if it will be big I want a well-behaved one. Is there a way to train without treats? I don't want to give my dog a command and he does it expecting a treats. Is there a way you can train and still use treats but have them not expect one? We are considering puppy training school but I'd rather do it on my own.

[Flatcoatluver]

I personally would insist on taking a puppy to class. It's not only for the training, but it also get's the puppy socialized with different surroundings. To adopt a dog at our local shelter, you have to sign a contract saying you will take the dog to a certain training facility.

When I start off training dogs, I reward for every behavior that I want, with a small cookie. Slowly I start doing multiple behaviors and then reward. For example when I trained Sage, he started off doing basic obedience. He would sit, and I would reward. Down, and I would reward. ETC. When he started understanding and working for a reward, then I would Have him sit, and down and maybe stand, and then reward. Now that he is advanced he gets random cookies during his training, so then he doesn't know when he is going to get one, and then he also get a "JACKPOT" at the end of his training. The same goes for when he does a rally or agility course. He does not get a reward during the course, but he gets a jackpot at the end. (A jackpot is when you reward with a bunch of different treats, sorta like when a human gets a money jackpot). I personally do not belive dogs do anything because they love us, they do it because they know that they might get something out of it, or for people that do old school dog training, they may get a pop on a choke or pinch collar.

I know a lot of people on here have different methods and opioions. This method works really well for my dogs, and the dogs that I have handled for other people.

[finn's mom]

With Finn, I gave him the smallest amount of a treat that I could get away with (usually about the size of a pea). I would treat him every time at first, then gradually give a treat every other time, then every three or four times, and so forth. I definitely think a class is a good idea, if for nothing else but the socialization in a controlled environment.

[Alysser]

You guys brought up some very valid points. I never thought of the socialization aspect of the class, I think that's a great thing for a dog at a young age, and socialization is something I worry about. Sassy didn't have terrible aggression but she was definitely not properly socialized. I am scared to death to think of aggression problems, I would NEVER want that. I think we'll have to go with a class then. Thanks very much for your opinions guys, I appreciate the advice.

[luvofallhorses]

Yeah an obdience class would be ideal. We learned not to give treats everytime the dog did something good, just a praise when I trained Jenny and my aunt's dog, Goldberg. Is there a particular dog you're looking at right now at a shelter or something? Sometimes they recommend a class that they are familiar with.

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

There certainly are ways to train without the use of treats, but I find that most dogs who are trained without aren't as happy to work for you as dogs who are trained with treats are. I train my dogs using different motivators -- they tend to get bored with the same reward over and over. So sometimes I use lots of praise, sometimes I use treats, and often I use a favourite toy. While teaching something new to any of them, I reward everytime they do the behaviour I want from them. Once they start realizing what I want, and are performing the behaviour reliably, I slowly phase the reward out, much like flatcoat described. Once they've perfected the behaviour, after a period of time, they're rarely rewarded heavily. They certainly are happy when they do get a treat, but if I tell them to sit, for example, they'll do it regardless of whether a reward is coming or not.

And as far as classes go, I completely agree with everyone who said they're a good choice. Never again will I have a dog and not go to classes, I don't think! My dogs who have been to classes are much more well rounded than the two that didn't go. I'm perfectly capable of teaching the basics at home, but I'd rather have the help of a class. Not only does the dog get to work in a highly distracting environment, but if you do need help, the trainer is always there. I've just started a formal obedience class with Dance, and even after taking quite a few different classes over the years, I still learned a few new things!

[Freedom]

My dogs are all rescues, arrived here as adults. They already knew some of the basics. Nevertheless, I took all 3 of them to Basic Manners classes (aka basic obedience). It helped with us bonding, and with them realizing that I am the alpha.

Just one more plus for classes, in addition to the socialization for younger dogs!

In class, we were taught much as FlatcoatLuver explained, starting with a reqard per command, than building commands. We progressed to using petting and word rewards. As she mentioned, if you go into Agility, you are not permitted to reward during a run, you have to wait to the end.

[Sugar only went through Basic Manners; she has major fear of other dogs due to an attack. She did improve with the class, which is all I wanted, I did not pressure her with more classes. Marlin went through 3 other classes, and Lacey advanced through 5 other classes.]

[Seravieve]

We've trained our three to be responsive without treats. We also do practice a human over dog dominance, including alpha rolls, etc. We do also reward with treats as well though. I can ask any of them for a paw, tell them to sit, leave the room, lay down, go in a crate, etc without a treat in my hand. I think it has a lot to do with eye contact and we snap fingers as well. I think they're just as happy to shake or high five and get a pat on the head as opposed to a treat. We are by no way aggressive, overly physical or mean, its just a Who's Boss kind of thing we do. And they have all learned at different stages in life, so even if you do end up getting an older (out of puppyhood) dog, it is possible.

Must be exciting looking forward to a new dog! I'm jealous I must say.. would love to add another one to our home.. but our neighbors wouldnt be happy.

[Alysser]

Yeah we miss a little pupper around. Sas was the cutest dog in the entire world and we miss her ALOT but I think a new dog would help a heal a little more, I stilll have a hard time accepting that its over That's what I told my parents about rescue dogs knowing commands, the ones at the shelter I volunteer at respond beautifully without treats. We don't want a SUPER OLD dog but I'm sure if the dog was 2-4 we would definitely consider him/her. Thanks for the advice guys!

[Giselle]

Treats are NOT bribes or lures. If you're using treats as bribes or lures, then you're not challenging your dog mentally. And that's what training is about - challenging your dog to think.

Treats are rewards for doing a correct behavior. When the dog understands what is correct behavior, you quickly fade the treat and initiate *intermittent rewarding*.

Intermittent rewards give you the most reliable, most intense response. Think: gambling Folks don't win everytime they gamble, but they do win sometimes. And they can become addicted because intermittent rewarding is that strong.