31 Americans dead

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08-06-2011, 08:22 AM
Grace

31 Americans dead

Why don't we just get out of this God forsaken country?

Quote:

31 U.S. troops killed in Afghan crash
By: Associated Press
August 6, 2011 07:06 AM EDT

KABUL, Afghanistan - A helicopter crash in Afghanistan’s eastern Wardak province killed 31 U.S. special operation troops and seven Afghan soldiers, the country’s president said Saturday. It was the highest number of American casualties recorded in a single incident in the decade-long war.

A senior administration official said the NATO helicopter was apparently shot down.

President Hamid Karzai sent his condolences to President Barack Obama, according to a statement issued by his office.

“A NATO helicopter crashed last night in Wardak province,” Karzai said in the statement, adding that 31 American special operations troops were killed. “President Karzai expressed his deep condolences because of this incident and expressed his sympathy to Barack Obama.”

The Taliban claimed to have brought the helicopter down with a rocket attack, but they have been known to make exaggerated claims in the past.
08-06-2011, 08:48 AM
sasvermont

I just heard this on the news

How dreadful. When are we going to get out of that place? It made me sick to hear this news.

I am SO anti-war. I hate it.
08-06-2011, 09:26 AM
wombat2u2004

Well.....we could win.....if the pollies let us. ;)
08-06-2011, 09:37 AM
lizbud

I believe we missed our chance to get out. When Osama was killed
we should have declared victory and left. We went there supposedly
to find Osama. We did, mission over.Leave.
08-06-2011, 10:04 AM
Grace

My response to anyone who thinks we can truly "win" over there, and to anyone who thinks we need to stay, for whatever stupid reason -

When will you be leaving for the front lines?
08-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Grace

Latest reports saying that up to 25 of the Americans may have been SEALS.
08-06-2011, 11:49 AM
Karen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

Why don't we just get out of this God forsaken country?

Because we do not want it to descend back into tribal wars and chaos, and into Taliban control, dooming the girls and women into a life of ignorance and control.

I do not believe we can "win" there, but I do believe we should extricate our troops carefully, and hopefully leave some sort of hope for the Afghan people behind. The only ones who can possibly "win" in Afghanistan are the Afghan people. T'was always thus.

And I do not believe God has forsaken them.
08-06-2011, 11:55 AM
Grace

30 years ago the Taliban were looked upon by us, and many other countries, as "Freedom Fighters".

Now they are our enemy.

We went into that country to avenge 9/11 - NOT to free the populace from tyrants.

As John F. Kennedy said, so eloquently -

Quote:

“We must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient; that we are only 6 percent of the world's population; that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94 percent of mankind; that we cannot right every wrong or reverse every adversity; and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.”

All we are doing right now is wasting American lives in an untenable, unwinnable nightmare.
08-07-2011, 05:56 AM
wombat2u2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

30 years ago the Taliban were looked upon by us, and many other countries, as "Freedom Fighters".

Now they are our enemy.

Well then, they can't be trusted.
All the more reason why we should be on their ground, and not them on ours.
Freedom Fighters ??? That's only a media label...the only freedom they know is the freedom to subjugate.
Unwinnable war ???? That's a politicians label. Invented by politicians to cover up their own blunders.
08-07-2011, 07:20 AM
Miss Z

A tragic story - am I right in thinking that the SEALS unit involved in the crash was the same as the one whose members killed Bin Laden? It was mentioned as so on BBC news last night.

It's a tetchy subject as to whether we should still send troops out to these places or not. I can only put my trust in the forces stationed over there. It is they who see the current state of Afghanistan, and indeed Iraq, as it truly is. I suspect that they are the only ones who truly appreciate the good, or harm, they are bringing to these broken countries by their presence and bravery. Surely there must be some sort of superiors in the army stationed there also, who will know when it is the right time to leave, and have the means to put it into practice.
08-07-2011, 09:07 AM
Bonny

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Well.....we could win.....if the pollies let us. ;)

Yup! It reminds me of the Viet Nam War. Should send the pollies to fight the war. It would be over in no time.
08-07-2011, 09:54 AM
lizbud

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Z

A tragic story - am I right in thinking that the SEALS unit involved in the crash was the same as the one whose members killed Bin Laden? It was mentioned as so on BBC news last night.

Same unit but different men. I read that they were flying on a rescue
mission to pick up other men who were pinned down by sniper fire.Along
with the men on the helicoper were a dog & his handler.
08-07-2011, 10:29 AM
wombat2u2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonny

Yup! It reminds me of the Viet Nam War. Should send the pollies to fight the war. It would be over in no time.

If the pollies had shut their mouths in the first place, the war would have been won and over.
08-07-2011, 09:27 PM
Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Well then, they can't be trusted.
All the more reason why we should be on their ground, and not them on ours.
Freedom Fighters ??? That's only a media label...the only freedom they know is the freedom to subjugate.
Unwinnable war ???? That's a politicians label. Invented by politicians to cover up their own blunders.

The Taliban and Mujahideen were regarded as Freedom Fighters a bit over 30 years ago, when they were fighting against the Soviet Union, who had invaded their country.

Unwinnable - a word used by my husband, who like you spent time in Vietnam - two tours, in fact.

And when will you be joining the Aussie forces - they are still involved?
08-07-2011, 09:36 PM
Puckstop31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

Unwinnable - a word used by my husband, who like you spent time in Vietnam - two tours, in fact.

My father, also a multiple tour Vietnam guys agrees. I also agree.

Quote:

And when will you be joining the Aussie forces - they are still involved?

Nearly every person who has ever served in combat will tell you that this is the MOST sophmoric arguement EVER made. "When will you be on the front lines." This kind of bullcrap is ALWAYS uttered by people who could NEVER actually do what they suggest.

Further, as a combat vet myself.... I will tell you that I would NOT want just anyone next to me when it matters. Not every person has what it takes to do what we did. This is a good thing. I pray for an all VOLUNTEER force forever.

OR, Mrs. Grace.... Pick up YOUR rifle and follow ME.

You know better than this.... Right?
08-07-2011, 09:52 PM
Marigold2

Let us not argue amounst ourselves but honor and pray for those fallen.
08-07-2011, 10:14 PM
Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

My father, also a multiple tour Vietnam guys agrees. I also agree.

Nearly every person who has ever served in combat will tell you that this is the MOST sophmoric arguement EVER made. "When will you be on the front lines." This kind of bullcrap is ALWAYS uttered by people who could NEVER actually do what they suggest.

Further, as a combat vet myself.... I will tell you that I would NOT want just anyone next to me when it matters. Not every person has what it takes to do what we did. This is a good thing. I pray for an all VOLUNTEER force forever.

OR, Mrs. Grace.... Pick up YOUR rifle and follow ME.

You know better than this.... Right?

Chill, Puck. With your assistance, the point has been made.
08-07-2011, 11:51 PM
dab_20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizbud

i believe we missed our chance to get out. When osama was killed
we should have declared victory and left. We went there supposedly
to find osama. We did, mission over.leave.

thank you!
08-08-2011, 05:55 AM
Puckstop31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizbud

I believe we missed our chance to get out. When Osama was killed
we should have declared victory and left. We went there supposedly
to find Osama. We did, mission over.Leave.

This is the reason we "lost" 'my' war. Somalia.

The mission CANNOT be about ONE man. Somalia was. Get him and it takes away some of your ability to do other things that may need done. DON'T get him and the mission is a failure, no matter what else you accomplish.

Nope, the mission should never be about ONE man.
08-08-2011, 10:16 AM
wombat2u2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

The Taliban and Mujahideen were regarded as Freedom Fighters a bit over 30 years ago, when they were fighting against the Soviet Union, who had invaded their country.

Unwinnable - a word used by my husband, who like you spent time in Vietnam - two tours, in fact.

And when will you be joining the Aussie forces - they are still involved?

Unwinnable. And so said Constantinople.
Unwinnable ?? We were winning when I was there.
Unwinnable !!! The new word for a new millenium.
Nope, sorry Gretchen, I somehow just can't get a grip on that word. Sounds too much like a word invented by someone who wants to cover their own butt because of bad decisions.

The Taliban and the Mujahideen were not freedom fighters in any sense of those words, nor were the Viet Cong, they were simply extremists who wished to exert their ideals, will and control over the more peaceful majority.
"Freedom Fighters" are words invented by the media and Jane Fonda.....period.

And when will you be joining the Aussie forces ?I'd go tomorrow if they relaxed the age requirement. No problem at all.

They (the Aussies) are still involved ?
Of course. We always have been. ;)
You see Gretchen, we Aussies believe that the allied forces in this world are about the best peacekeepers there are. We also believe that the best way to keep peace is to have a presence in those countries that threaten world peace, even when our soldiers die, we believe that they have died for world peace.
Sure, we could pull our troops out of there tomorrow, and not get involved in any war ever. I wonder how long it would be before we had to defend ourselves on our own soil ??? Well, I'd have to say "Not very long".
But....perhaps it's time, as you say, to retire and not play peacekeeper any more....so who would you suggest take over that role ??? Russia ?? China ??
Iran ?? Somalia ??
Think about that Gretchen. And tell me, who should take over that role instead of our allied forces ??
08-08-2011, 10:17 AM
lizbud

We were unable to capture & punish the ones who commited the 9/11
bombings, they died too. So Bush vowed to find & punish the man who sent
the bombers on their mission.It took years & another President to accomplish
the mission, but we did it, as promised. The end, come home.
08-08-2011, 10:22 AM
wombat2u2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

Nope, the mission should never be about ONE man.

Two then.
I think two is good. :p
08-08-2011, 10:23 AM
wombat2u2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizbud

The end, come home.

The end.
Nice.
You make that sound as if it's right out of a book.
08-08-2011, 10:32 AM
Miss Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

The mission CANNOT be about ONE man. Somalia was. Get him and it takes away some of your ability to do other things that may need done.

I was intrigued by this statement. I wonder if you could clarify - did you mean that focusing on destroying one man takes the proverbial eye off the ball, with regards to the real problems in the country? Or perhaps that, once you have the man, you create more problems in getting the population on your side? Just curious.

I agree with Puck that war cannot be about knocking one guy off his perch. I believe Osama was justification for sending troops out to Afghanistan. 'We want to risk soldiers' lives to sort out a country whose regime is displeasing to us' probably wouldn't have sat very comfortably with most UN countries, I should imagine.

Osama Bin Laden was the face of terrorism, and whilst it's great he can no longer bring any more of his hate to the world, there's plenty of other nutjobs like him bringing fear to the people of the Middle East through acts of terrorism. I suppose that is the 'unwinnable' part; the fact that it's one nutjob after another. I personally wouldn't like to say.

I for one am glad that we haven't abandoned the innocent once we got what we 'came' for. That being said, the loss of more and more lives of our soldiers is heartbreaking. Again, I have faith that someone's got to know when the cons outweigh the pros, and that they will have the means to take action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizbud

Same unit but different men. I read that they were flying on a rescue
mission to pick up other men who were pinned down by sniper fire.Along
with the men on the helicoper were a dog & his handler.

Thanks for clarifying, Liz. How sad, too, that they were on their way to help others. :(
08-08-2011, 07:47 PM
cassiesmom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

I would NOT want just anyone next to me when it matters. Not every person has what it takes to do what we did. This is a good thing. I pray for an all VOLUNTEER force forever.

I have a friend who likes to say, no matter what a person thinks about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, they can still support the troops by keeping them in thoughts and prayers, helping pack care packages, sending e-mails and e-cards, donating telephone cards, flying the flag, making visits to V.A. hospitals, or a whole host of other things. On that point I think he's definitely right.

I heard on the news last night that the removal of some 30,000 U.S. troops would include only "surge troops", not special forces like Navy SEALS. Almost 70,000 would remain there. Is the war there accomplishing what it's supposed to? Grace's "In Memoriam" thread reflects that people are getting killed there on almost a daily basis. The Middle East has never been stable- will it be that much more unstable if all the forces from all the nations leave?
08-09-2011, 05:44 AM
blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

Why don't we just get out of this God forsaken country?

They dont follow your God so they are God forsaken?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Well.....we could win.....if the pollies let us. ;)

This. Fight To Win! Screw the Hearts and Mind feel good garbage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizbud

I believe we missed our chance to get out. When Osama was killed
we should have declared victory and left. We went there supposedly
to find Osama. We did, mission over.Leave.

We should have let my late boss, a 2 tour volunteer for Viet Nam, run the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We probably would have had it wrapped up in 2 or 3 years. He would have made fighting us so miserable and unbearable that unequivocal surrender would be preferable to continued hostilities. We could have made it so hostile that the muslims hiding Osama would have given him up in a second, and not after 10 years.

If we had actually fought a War more of our men and women in uniform would still be with us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

My response to anyone who thinks we can truly "win" over there, and to anyone who thinks we need to stay, for whatever stupid reason -

When will you be leaving for the front lines?

If we as a Country become serious in bringing the Fight to the Enemy, and if I could get a medical waver, I'll leave before the ink is dry on the paper. We need to make War more horrendous for them then it is for us. If we arent willing to do that we should just give up and continue the collapse of our country that Hope and Change is accelerating.

And Wom if Aussieland lets you back in get me a spot if they decide to actually Bring It to the Enemy.
08-09-2011, 06:20 AM
wombat2u2004

Well said blue. All of it....well said. ;)
08-09-2011, 04:43 PM
Puckstop31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Z

I was intrigued by this statement. I wonder if you could clarify - did you mean that focusing on destroying one man takes the proverbial eye off the ball, with regards to the real problems in the country? Or perhaps that, once you have the man, you create more problems in getting the population on your side? Just curious.

I'll try.... I am going to use Somalia as an example.

Adid was not THE problem, but he was the face of it. Grab him and the problem does not go away as some other wanna be despot takes his place. But for (IMO) political expediency 'getting Adid' was how we were going to define success.

See how making the mission about ONE person can tie the hands of the people asked to accomplish the task? Yes, Osama is gone, but the problems are still there. I think the next question is are we willing to do what is necessary to try and create the conditions necessary to allow the people of Afghanistan to govern themselves in a way that will allow them to be a peaceful contributor to the world? Personally, I do not think so. If that is the case, its time to leave.
08-12-2011, 10:29 AM
wombat2u2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

I think the next question is are we willing to do what is necessary to try and create the conditions necessary to allow the people of Afghanistan to govern themselves in a way that will allow them to be a peaceful contributor to the world? Personally, I do not think so. If that is the case, its time to leave.

Why would you think like that Puck ??? Why do you believe that we can't leave them in a position to govern themselves peacefully ???
We did it in Korea. Yes ??? South Korea is on it's feet, economically stable.
Simply put, what we did there was buy those people time, to arm them and train them and get their economy right, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves against all the so called "freedom fighters" the "liberators" the blah blah blah that the media wants us to believe. Ask any South Korean if they would want ever to be part of the regime in the north, ask them if life would be better being ruled by the north, ask them if their country would be better off economically if ruled by the north......I'm pretty sure you know what their answers would be.

Allow me to fill you in a little about the war I was involved in, and the disgusting way in which it was run by the U.S.
I, like you, was a combatant. And I seen my fair share. I've been with US soldiers, Kiwi's, Aussies, South Vietnamese Army, Nung and Montagnard mercenaries, the latter three of which were fighting not for the US or anyone else....they were simply fighting for their country. We went there to help these people, and we did, and we did it well. We armed them, we trained them, and we fought with them. Against who ??? The so called "Liberators".
What a joke !!!! Liberators of what ????
The "Liberators" slaughtered at will.....oh they had a go at us alright, we all lost some 50,000 men. Any idea of how many of their own people they killed ??? Let me tell you mate, if not 100's of thousands, then it would have to be almost millions. And I'm not talking about them killing South Vietnamese soldiers (of which their was many), I'm talking about women, children, the elderly, whoever they wanted to kill. Did you know during the 1968 Tet Offensive when they over-ran Hue, they killed thousands and thousands of people because they were educated ? Yep, their only crime was to be educated. Not to mention the thousands of babies and children that were murdered after the final victory over the south because those kids were half caste....yep, Vietnamese mothers, U.S. fathers.
And we get idiots like Jane Fonda, the media, and the local San Francisco flower power people telling us to make love and not war ??? Jeez, give me a break.

Why couldn't we have done in South Vietnam like we did in Korea ???
Why is it so difficult to believe that it can happen in Afghanistan ??
Why don't we simply just DO IT ????
No rules. No bloody politician imput. Sack idiots in Congress. Just get in there and kick the hell out of them.
You know Puck, we do have the ability, I know, I've been involved in it. So no one EVER can convince me of the relevance of "UNWINNABLE", that word is just junk. We as soldiers know that, and you should know that.

Sorry for the rave, I get upset a bit.
08-12-2011, 10:50 AM
Miss Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

I'll try.... I am going to use Somalia as an example.

Adid was not THE problem, but he was the face of it. Grab him and the problem does not go away as some other wanna be despot takes his place. But for (IMO) political expediency 'getting Adid' was how we were going to define success.

Thanks, Puck. Seems we are indeed on the same page - your thoughts echo what I was trying to get across about Iraq and Afghanistan in my previous post.
08-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Puckstop31

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Why would you think like that Puck ??? Why do you believe that we can't leave them in a position to govern themselves peacefully ???

Read up on the history of Afghanistan. Me thinks you will figure it out.

Quote:

Why couldn't we have done in South Vietnam like we did in Korea ???
Why is it so difficult to believe that it can happen in Afghanistan ??
Why don't we simply just DO IT ????
No rules. No bloody politician imput. Sack idiots in Congress. Just get in there and kick the hell out of them.

Because, thank God, our military is beholden to our civilian government. As frustrating as it can get watching the aliens we send to represent us, play politics with our finest men and women, I am still assured that our military still is under the control of our civilian leadership. Awful as said 'leadership' is most of the time.

Think very long and very hard about what you are asking for Wom. It sounds to me like you want a very authortarian leadership.... Only YOUR kind of authortarians. "No bloody politician input..." It SHOULD NOT ever be that simple man.

Quote:

You know Puck, we do have the ability, I know, I've been involved in it. So no one EVER can convince me of the relevance of "UNWINNABLE", that word is just junk. We as soldiers know that, and you should know that.

ABSOLUTLEY. You have to know that I know what our militaries are capable of. It has never been a question of the ability of our forces to win. Its the people who our military serves, not having the will to do what is necessary.

I know and you know that war is a ugly, horrible thing. Many people cannot get past the fact that it costs lives to win freedom. Plus, with the way the media lustily craves any story where our forces do something wrong....

Until we have the civilian leadership with the guts to do what it would take to win, its not worth wasting our time, treasure and hte blood of our finest.

Just keep all of this in mind when, a few years from now when all the western forces are gone.... When the Taliban take their revenge on the populace who dared support freedom.... Remind the usual suspects of this day.

Quote:

Sorry for the rave, I get upset a bit.

No worries. My father is the same way about it. He is a multiple tour Vietnam vet as well.
08-12-2011, 06:30 PM
wombat2u2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

Think very long and very hard about what you are asking for Wom. It sounds to me like you want a very authortarian leadership.... Only YOUR kind of authortarians. "No bloody politician input..." It SHOULD NOT ever be that simple man.

No mate, I don't want an authoritarian leadership at all. I just believe that if we commit ourselves to helping people, we have to follow through. We can't just go there and make all the promises in the world, and then just walk away from it.